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Lil Lin
Junior Member
 England
45 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 11:31:34 AM
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I'm after some advice. My current saddle has been slipping to one side and my mare has put on weight, so a wider saddle is required. I went to the local saddle shop on Saturday and bought a second hand Ideal GP saddle, with the understanding if it didn't fit I could return it with a full refund. My current saddle is also an Ideal GP but this one was a newer model, and wider.
So I tried it on my mare's back, with no girth or anything on, it seemed ok, maybe sitting a little high. I then went to get my girth, put saddle back on and girthed it up, using my usual Aerborn Humane girth and put it on the first hole at both sides. She tensed up massively and reared. She landed with her right leg outstretched. I was going to take the saddle straight off but tried to straighten her up by pushing her right shoulder back first. She wouldn't budge no matter how hard I tried to put her shoulder back and I could see she was still extremely tense.
There was fresh air between the girth and her belly and i could very easily fit my hand in, which i did. I then went round to her left side to push her over to straighten her, which she did do. But then proceeded to rear full height, fighting furiously against the tie ring. The twine then snapped and she fell straight on her back. She lay still for seconds (it felt like an eternity), before clambering to her feet and cantering away broncing with the saddle slipping round the her stomach. I managed to get hold of her and remove the saddle, which you can imagine was in a hell of a state. But luckily she only had a few minor cuts to her front legs.
I have the vet coming on Wednesday to check her over after this incident but I just don't know why she reacted in this way, when the saddle wasn't girthed tight and no pressure on, and is the same make, only slightly wider than her usual saddle. I have never encountered any problems of this type with her before, she is usually fine to girth up.
Any ideas? She is just coming out of season, is 10 years old and has done very little in her ridden career, until she came to me in November and I have hacked her all over with no issues at all.
She has jsut had 10 weeks off due to lameness, but was sound until this incident.
Thank you.
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Edited by - Lil Lin on 30 Jun 2014 11:38:03 AM
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glo
Gold Member
England
1297 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 11:52:17 AM
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Sounds like my mare, it may not be the saddle but if you put it on and did the girth up to quickly, even though once she had stooped breathing out the girth was loose, it could have been tight or pinching hence having the screaming-add-dabs.
try with the saddle again and put the girth up one hole at a time and walk her around the yard for 2 or 3 minuets before doing each hole. This has worked for me for the last 9 years on a horse that used do do this most of the time and still will if I am not careful in the girthing.
Also the Humane girths can be done up very tight very fast, so may be change it for a shaped wintic with the elastic that's on the inside and gives all round. |
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Edited by - glo on 30 Jun 2014 11:53:45 AM |
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Lil Lin
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 12:59:07 PM
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| I had only put the girth on the first hole on each side, it was not tight in the slightest. I didn't even have the chance to do it up anymore, or walk her round. And she's never shown sensitivity when girthing her up before, although I always am careful and girth her up gently, easing it up after a few minutes. It just has me baffled. |
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sab2
Platinum Member
8467 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 1:24:26 PM
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| First off i would do as you are doing and get the vet to check her over, maybe if your present saddle has been slipping she could be a little sore hence the reaction to saddle going on,or it could be as simple as a fly bite on her back, side etc but could also be more serious. If it was me once the vets given her the thumbs up i would get the saddler out to measure her and do a fitting. Some saddle although the same make can be a different fit esp if a newer model. If only they could talk they could tell us whats going on , but sadly they cannot so up to us to work our way through the problems slowly. I do wish you well in sorting it out and so glad she didn,t do too much damage to herself, just go slowly with her and i am sure you can work this out. |
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SuziQ
Gold Member
England
922 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 3:57:02 PM
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Gosh how scary.. glad that your mare is ok but like glo suggests I would assume that this was a reaction to pain or discomfort. Some animals are very indulgent and put up with lots before they ever show you a problem..others wont let the saddle cloth be rucked up without having a hissy fit.
She hasnt been ridden for 10 weeks prior to her fright ..perhaps the lameness has resulted in her holding herself awkwardly and putting her back out.
A friend had a little TBxNF, one day she bronced her off.. we got out the vet and back people but a friend of mine who agreed to see her was the one who suggested if the problem kept recurring for no obvious reason perhaps the back wasnt the problem she suggested we start at the bottom up..it was her feet.. she had panosteitis and once we treated that problem she had no more problems with her back.
Good luck getting over your saddling issue. |
Everyone in my life brings me happiness, some by arriving others by leaving. |
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Lil Lin
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 4:06:11 PM
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Thank you for all of your advice. I will get a properly fitted saddle after this.
SuzieQ - I rode her last week in her old saddle with no problems before this incident, but I get where you're coming from and will explore all avenues as to what the issue could have been x |
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Faracat
Silver Member
270 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 6:01:36 PM
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| Don't forget that a saddle that slips to the side can be a sign of hindlimb lameness. |
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LadyLuck1
Gold Member
England
730 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 10:34:56 PM
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While we were looking for a new saddle lately my friends ideal fit perfectly so I asked my saddler if I could just get one the same and I was surprised to learn that the Ideal saddles all sit on 5 different trees, so the saddle could look exactly the same but have a completely different shaped tree.
Good luck with the vet on wed hope she is ok.
Mary |
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Quarabian
Platinum Member
Wales
4340 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2014 : 10:59:51 PM
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As this was a second hand saddle I wonder if there was something wrong with it. If nothing else it might have smelled of something that spooked her. I always try to think outside the box when something like this happens. You say she has put on weight. Maybe she doesn't need a wider saddle but rather get a saddler to remove some of the stuffing. Ask the saddler.
When you say the twine snapped, I presume she was tied up at this point. Probably she was feeling trapped, dont know why. Could you try the saddle on while she is on a lead rein and able to walk around.
Thirdly, more time to look at, smell and touch the saddle, lifting it on and off her back several times before attempting to girth up.
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2014 : 10:28:59 AM
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The only other possibility is that it may have been the smell of the previous horse, particularly if the saddle was used on a stallion; she may have smelled a stallion on her and, if not in season, she would take great exception to that. You could try her old saddle on her and see how she reacts if she is OK and her back isn't sore. If she is OK you could spray the new saddle with something strong smelling to mask any scent on it and see what her reaction is when you hold it near her nose.
I do hope she is OK and hasn't hurt her back in the fall.
Barbara |
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LIV
Gold Member
England
705 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 07:37:04 AM
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I've had this problem for years and have been down every possible route to try and sort it out. We've bought a new saddle that fits well, had a physio, teeth looked at, Richard Maxwell out a couple of times................and still it continued.
It's not normal for a horse to react like that to a saddle, especially if the girth was loose. Our mare used to hate being girthed up and her behaviour got progressively worse. She is such a sweet natured horse so this was so out of character and we knew that there must be something causing it. If you put the saddle on and did the girth up then her back would go up and you'd have to lead her round for a minimum of 10 mins before mounting. If you got on and she wouldn't move forward then you'd have to get straight off and lead her round and try again because if you insisted on making her walk forward then she would rear straight up and over backward with you on her.
Our mare couldn't get up hills easily without stressing, couldn't maintain a canter and would bunny hop, change legs or kick out, would shake her head continually and would stop and stand like a laminitic after 20 mins or so of exercise. We insisted on a referral and she has kissing spines and her sacroiliac was causing her to be in excruciating pain. This has now been medicated and she is due to return in a few weeks to have her kissing spines medicated. She is like a completely different animal now and I can get on straight away.
I'm not at all saying your horse has the same problem but most horses put up with some dreadful fitting tack and just get on with it so if your horse is reacting like this then it might we worth thinking about how she goes when she is ridden and if there could be any other factors that help to pin point a problem. We came across the kissing spines page on FB and everyone's experiences helped us to work out what was wrong with our mare and so we pushed to have her referred. We'd had several different vets out before and none of them even suggested that this could be her problem.
Good luck with sorting it out x |
     
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Kerry Wilson
Silver Member
United Kingdom
280 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2014 : 08:09:40 AM
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| Also check there are no lurking spikes, loose nails or whatever in the underside of saddle and no fly bites on her back that might not be obvious? |
Edited by - Kerry Wilson on 02 Jul 2014 08:10:29 AM |
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Lil Lin
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 09:13:11 AM
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Well guys, the vet came yesterday and gave her the thumbs up. She hadn't damaged herself in the fall luckily, and she couldn't see any signs of pain or discomfort, so has advised me to perservere with her.
The only thing she showed some concern at was her canter on the lunge, which she described as a 'bunny hop'. She said this can be an indication of a problem, and the next step would be a bone scan. She didn't seem too concerned about it though.
She's always cantered in this way - could this just be her gait?
When we had the incident at the weekend, she wasn't too pleased at being tied up, was being a bit stressy, looking for her friends in the field etc as she was the only one on the yard at the time, which she doesn't like. She was also in season. I thought her season had finished but it's only just ending now. I'm going to try and put her on a supplement to help with her seasons, see if this helps.
Now I just need to find another saddle for a flat backed arab.
Thanks for all of your advice everyone :) |
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Arachnid
Platinum Member
England
1872 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 09:30:19 AM
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| Marbahran is currently wearing an H&C Apex saddle made by ideal. It has a flat tree, wide gullet and is extra wide fitting. They seem to come up on eBay quite often. Just a thought. |
   
West Sussex |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 6:01:42 PM
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Lily has an Ideal Event VSD saddle (wide fitting) - the saddler recommended it as the flat tree is good for Arabs, they come up quite regularly on ebay. But I bought it as a result of a master saddler's recommendation when she had checked out her back, and I had a different master saddler check the fit - which got the thumbs up - I really would recommend getting someone with a good reputation (and preferably a selection of second hand saddles) to fit your girl. |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 03 Jul 2014 6:06:45 PM |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jul 2014 : 7:00:34 PM
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| P.S. Lily bunny hopped at a canter as a youngster (4) but grew out of it as she got stronger, (and passed a 5 stage vetting while doing it), although your mare is older, maybe she has just never cantered much? You say she had not done much before you bought her. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Lil Lin
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2014 : 10:06:36 AM
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Thanks for the advice about the canter - she'd only been ridden a handful of times before coming to me last winter so no, she wouldn't have done much cantering. I'm hoping that's all it is.
Thanks also for the advice about the saddles. I'm going to get a master saddler to come with a variety of second hand saddles.
I'll update once I've had him out.
Thanks again :) |
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SuziQ
Gold Member
England
922 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2014 : 2:55:53 PM
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If you are looking for a good hormone balancer the key ingredient on alot of the commercially prepared ones is Agnus Castus.. you can cut out the middle man and feed it very successfully on its own at a much reduced price.
Glad that the vet didnt find anything wrong with your girl..now you have to put the puzzle pieces together instead! |
Everyone in my life brings me happiness, some by arriving others by leaving. |
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Pasch
Platinum Member
2277 Posts |
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Lil Lin
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2014 : 09:27:00 AM
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Pasch - I am also beginning to think it's more to do with her panicking and wanting to go back with the others and feeling trapped at being tied up, also being in season wouldn't have helped the situation as she was whinnying at any/every horse, being very clingy around this time.
I've found that I can bring her in from the field with no other horses being on the yard, and she will stand ever so relaxed and let me do anything with her whilst the lead rope is chucked over her neck. As soon as I tie her up, however, she gets increasingly worried/stressed. This behaviour is only when there are no other horses in sight. If there are horses on the yard, she will stand tied no problem.
Before I got her in November, she hadn't done much at all, and just lived in the field she was bred in. She's 10 years old and is still owned by her breeder, i'm just very lucky to loan her.
Arachnid - I didn't realise it when I purchased the saddle but having checked since reading your post, the saddle involved in this incident is actually an Ideal Apex H&C. I'm going to get the tree checked by a local saddler and then get a saddle fitter to come and check the fit if the tree is found to be sound.
I appreciate very much everyone's help and advice. |
Edited by - Lil Lin on 07 Aug 2014 11:05:44 AM |
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Lil Lin
Junior Member
England
45 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 11:32:22 AM
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Hi again - just an update as I'm still a bit baffled about this whole saddle situation.
After a vet check to Khoobie confirming she was sound and had no back pain, I had the new saddle checked by a saddler and the tree wasn't damaged (Ideal Apex H&C wide fitting saddle on spring tree) I tried it on her again, whilst tied on the yard with other horses all around her, she was standing very relaxed at the time. I girthed the saddle up gradually and slowly. After I'd girthed her up properly she stood fine for 2-3 minutes, then she pulled back on her hind legs, as if threatening to rear. I quickly untied her. She then had a bit of what I can only describe as a fit of panic, pulled loose from me and her legs buckled beneath her and she hit the ground. Awful to see. Luckily my friend was on hand and grabbed her as soon as she got up and walked her round the yard with her saddle still on (she hadn't hurt herself apart from a small graze to her front leg).
She walked round very calmly and we then removed her saddle and I got on her bareback and walked her up and down the road outside the stable yard, no problems. I have since lunged her in the saddle, making sure I tack up either on the yard with someone holding her or in her stable - no issues.
Last weekend, I decided to try and get on board. As soon as I put my foot in the stirrup her legs buckled beneath her and she was going to go down. I took my foot straight out and she righted herself and didn't go down, thankfully. I took her into the paddock, lunged her again with saddle still on. Tried to mount again and each time I went near her, even gathered the reins, she threatened to rear.
She's never done this before when I've tried to mount. For the next few days I roder her bareback and she was a lttle angel.
So last night, I tried her old saddle back on. Well it's like there's never been an issue. We went out for an hour's gentle hack. So the issue has obviously been the new saddle, causing pain/discomfort. But I've never experienced this before, where a horse has reacted in such extreme ways without a rider being on board. I feel bad that it's taken to long to resolve the issue and that I kept perservering with the saddle, when she was clearly screaming at me that she wasn't happy. It seems so obvious now that the issue was this saddle all along. What's baffling me though, is that I've never actually sat my bum in that saddle and wondered has anyone else experienced anything similar? |
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pinkvboots
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3290 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 12:29:42 PM
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Nichole Waller on here with Ozzie had a similar thing happen with him when she tried a new saddle was not as extreme as your though, you could pm her or she may even see it and reply on here.
Does really sound as if she was not keen on the new saddle if she is ok with her old one. |
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FireLight
Gold Member
620 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 1:05:07 PM
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Hi I had the same problem. I went through 5 saddles with the same reaction as you describe and went back to his old saddle that wasn't a good fit - it bridged and was too wide but he was as happy as anything in it. He was checked by the physio every 6 months to make sure the saddle that didn't fit wasn't doing any damage and all was ok. He went for 13 years in his old saddle covering miles. I never explained his quirkiness but just listened to what he was obviously trying to tell me - leave me in my old saddle!  Good Luck. |
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SuziQ
Gold Member
England
922 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 1:52:37 PM
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My arab mare had similar ab dads when I tried to change her saddle after she had broken her shoulder and been out of work for nearly 2 years!.. she would throw herself about in stupid ways even though the saddles that she was trying fit her better than her old ideal, the ideal slipped and was too narrow but she was fine in it!
In the end my lovely saddler sent the saddle to ideal to have the tree changed (was a risk as not that sort of saddle)and some minor adjustments...when it came back we just put it on her, she turned and sniffed it and was totally fine! |
Everyone in my life brings me happiness, some by arriving others by leaving. |
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FireLight
Gold Member
620 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 2:03:29 PM
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| Had to smile SuziQ, my boys saddle was an Ideal. We tried to change to a different Ideal, that fit, but he wasn't being 'conned'. Do you think they become attached to a certain saddle like a sort of 'comfort blanket'. My boy was seriously quirky in many other ways too. |
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arabesque
Silver Member
339 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2014 : 2:11:46 PM
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I used to have a mare that would show this reaction if her saddle got too tight behind the shoulder. After it happened a few times I got someone out to check her back, she gave the same reaction when he touched the muscle behind her shoulder under the girth. With a good massage, the muscles softened and she went back to normal.
I recently read an article demonstrating a nerve that runs from behind the withers, which can get pinched and cause a strong reaction due to muscle spasms. It made sense when I read it, but I can't remember where I saw it! (Sadly, I lost the mare to grass sickness before I ever completely got her settled under saddle.) |
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Topic |
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Advice needed - rearing when trying new saddle
