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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
 Posted - 28 May 2003 : 11:24:19 PM
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Im just wondering on your opinions,i was thinking about putting my mare in foal,but after alot of thought im still undecided. The main problem being money,by the time youve paid stud fees, vets fees, registering the foal etc it seemed to add up to quite alot,& at the end of it all your not guranteed to get a foal anyway. I was wondering whether it would make more sense,financially that is,to buy a foal later in the year. That way i wouldnt have the worry of any problems. I realise it wont be the same as breeding your own,but im concerned that its alot of money to spend & not get anything back! Mind you im basing this on the fact that i paid £250 for my gelding as a yearling. After looking at all the stallions ive seen advertised id be lucky to find one with a stud fee for under £250.Opinions please!!
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 08:22:48 AM
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We get back to the chicken and egg situation here. if they are cheaper to buy, who is going to breed them! Seriously, there has to be a REASON to breed a foal.
Unless your mare has the temperament and soundness to pass on she should probably never be bred from, and conformation / breed type should be strong considerations in the choice of mate, rather than fashionable stallions who may not be best for a particular mare.
A fair price for a foal has to reflect the cost to the breeder, mare keep for over a year when she is not ridden, routine farrier, wormers before you get to the stud fee.
Unfortunatley there are people with lots of land that would rather keep their mares pregnant year in year out because it doesn't cost them very much to do so, rather than only breed what the customers are loooking for. (not a dig at Arab breeders, but the very many unregistered of no known origin that we see selling for peanuts)
I live near Beeston market and see about a hundred horses and ponies a week - sometimes the same ones - going from dealer to dealer.
Even though we keep our own stallion, I have only had one foal six years ago, a much wanted filly that is retained, and bred again last year, luckily another filly, retained. I could probably have bought cheaper!
"A FOOLISH MAN BREEDS HORSES FOR WISE MEN TO BUY"
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 10:32:57 AM
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Hi,my mare is really nice,& was shown successfully as a youngster,she has a fantastic teperment & her confermation is good. I would really love to breed from her,its just such a financial comitment. Also the other thing being as shes chestnut,& if i put her to a grey stallion,what are the chances of getting a grey foal,which is what i really would like. Im have every intention of keeping the foal,so im not thinking of it from a selling it on point of view.Its just some of the stud fees are astronomical,i have found 1 stallion i really like Razzi Halim,i think his stud fee was either £250 or £300,i cant remember,does this seem a good price? I think his was one of the cheaper fees i found & on the plus side hes only up the road.
I think i was very lucky when i bought my yearling,as she only had the 1 mare she bred from,& rekoned arab prices were really bad which is why i had him at that price,i have to admit i havnt seen 1 that cheap since!! |
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ginger horse
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1215 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 11:27:13 AM
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A friend of mine was going to breed her own foal . But after talking to lots of people and readng lots of books she changed her mind she said that the risks are to hi and could end up costing a lot of money . So she bought a foal at weaning she was so happy with him but in the next year he cost her about £3000 in vet bills and alot of sleepless nights. Ive also seen people who have just got new older horse and ended up with vet bills and lots of problems. no matter how young, old, buying or breeding as with any other animals you are taking risks its just up to you to the type of risk you are willing to face.
good luck in your choice and hope it all works out for you.
j smith |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 1:12:38 PM
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| Razzi Halim is a nice little horse i remember seeing him at shows a few years ago and as far as i can remember he was successfully shown.And £250 to £300 for a stud fee is a bargain as the hot shots are charging £1000 + !!! Libby |
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 1:35:18 PM
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| Ok,so say i decide to put my mare in foal,i know ive got to get her checked by the vet to make sure she hasnt got any infectious diseases,then youve got the stud fee, plus if she has to stay with the stallion for a few days thats more money again,plus registering the foal. So what have i missed out,because i know i've missed something out! Did i read some where i have to have my mare DNA tested before i can register the foal? If i have missed anything out please say,because if i do go ahead i dont want any unexpected surprises! |
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Michelle
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3197 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 2:30:25 PM
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Hi Vik,
I really think that before you commit yourself you ought to do a lot of reading and research so you know exactly what you are getting yourself into.
Always remember that there is a lot more to breeding than just putting your mare in foal, and a lot more important issues than just the money, after all, we are talking about a little life here.
I always believed that for the sake of the breed (any breed) then everyone has to play their part and make unselfish decisions.
Only really good horses should be chosen as breeding horses, if you have a good mare then it is your responsibility to make sure that you choose the best stallion your money will buy. Breeding decisions based on the stallion 'being up the road' are not IMO all that responsible.
Also 'cheap' does not = 'value for money', although that is not to say that an educated eye can see the potential in an young stallion who is unproven and may be less expensive than some.
There are LOADS of really good stallions out there and not all are expensive. What really matters is that you chose the best stallion for your mare, he must be able to correct your mares bad points and vice versa.
Go round and see as many stallions as you can, learn something about all of them. Try to remember that apart from there potentially being a difference initial stud fee, it costs the same to breed a good horse as it does a bad one and the same complications can arise.
I don't want to sound harsh, you have asked for advice and I am giving you mine. If it's a foal to keep that you want I would suggest that there will be many foals for sale out there, the main thing is that someone like yourself can give one of them a loving home where it will be looked after and given a chance. Too many people breed for the sake of it without knowing enough about it. You never stop learning but you have to be willing to learn in the first place. Then with your new found knowledge you can give your mare the chance of breeding a super foal in the future????
I know you might not get a foal for less than 800 pounds but I doubt very much that your breeding bill will be far off that anyway.
I don't mean to sound patronising, I wish you all the luck with your decision.
Michelle |
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 5:31:41 PM
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I didnt think you were being patronising,i thought you raised some very good points.
The only thing i will say is a didnt just think of using Razzi Halim because he was up the road. I thought as he had been reserve british national champion @ AHS National Show, & Supreme Champion @ The Royal of England,Royal Windsor,South of England,Chesire County & Royal Welsh,etc,that was a good reason to use him.
Ok,so say now,i dont put my mare in foal(& im pretty certain now i wont) can anyone sujest a good breeder,who may have something for sale later in the year? |
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Liz Salmon
Bronze Member
USA
224 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 6:57:26 PM
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I judged Razzi Halim as a yearling in the US. He was stunning then and he was Junior Champion, and I subsequently sold him to Shirley Watts in 1992. I have seen one or two nice foals by him in the UK. He was out of a lovely mare. Liz Salmon
Elizabeth M. Salmon |
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Acorn Arabians
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2052 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 10:58:51 PM
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Hi Vik,
You havent actually said what you want this foal to do, do you want it to ride to show, be a pet?Colt or a filly? This is a topic we have discussed before on another thread.
I own my own stallions and so I can afford to sell my foals slighlty cheaper than say a person who has gone out and spent a thousand pounds on a stud fee.Plus keep etc. I work on a rule of thumb when pricing my horses - would I pay the asking price? 
This year I put the brakes on and bred one foal,(which is for sale) next year I have 7 foals due.Oh by the way you forgot the registration of foals is going to be 75.00 next year on top of all the other costs. best of luck with whatever you decide,
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 09:44:33 AM
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Just a thought, if you liked Razzi Halim, why not ask the owner if they might have something for sale by him? we bred to Razzi when he was owned by Halsdon, in fact I believe we were the first. Our resulting foal became Champion in-hand as a yearling at a C Show, and has been shown under saddle successfully, and, is a smashing broodmare. Her first colt foal, a yearling now, qualified at his first show yesterday.
This a bloodline that has proved to us it breeds on and can do everything.
Sue Bundy. |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 10:53:34 AM
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Hi all,
Sorry got to stick my oar in again! Vik you should read the thread looking for a suitable stallion it started as a request for info on pure bred stallions in Devon & Cornwall and ended up as a huge debate about stud fees, morals etc, etc, etc.
I decided to breed from my mare as she is a nice type, has a lovely temperament, good conformation and has already produced a nice filly. Coupled with the fact I have wanted to breed my own foal for a very long time it was the only option for me.
My mare is of show quality but has never been shown as she had an accident as a youngster and has a large scar on her back leg. I am going to show her if all goes well with her foal at foot but I'm not sure how she would fair in classes on her own because of the scar? I have it on good authority that this should not affect her chances but I'm not convinced.
I can't wait to show my foal and as a youngster then in time under saddle, jumping, hunter trials, pleasure rides and maybe even racing???? Everything I have done with my gelding who is basically retired now although I may do some veteran classes with him.
Now I have got to the stage where I have selected a suitable stallion and she went away to stud at the beginning of May I've got fingers crossed she will come home in foal. Hopefully all will be well and next year I will be jumping for joy!!!!
I think basically you can buy a horse and win a hundred prizes but none will equal what you win with something you've bred!
Good luck whatever you decide and if you're looking to buy you could try Michael Harris at Combe Farm as he has some lovely horses, they have open days a couple of times a year. Also go to other studs and lots of shows and read up on horses you like and their bloodlines so you know what you want to end up with then you can start looking for a stallion or a horse to buy. |
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 11:37:19 AM
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I spoke to the people who have Razzi Halim last year & they had a foal for sale then,but at £5000 he was way out of my price range.If i do have a foal(bought or bred)i would really want a colt,not because i want a stallion,it'd be gelded as soon as it was old enough,im just not a mare person,yes i know ive got 1,but shes my exception! I would really like to have a go at showing,not any of the big shows like you all do ,just the local 1's to me,& now i suppose your wondering why i dont take mare as she's so nice??Slight problem of she doesnt box very well,& i dont fancy getting to a show & being stuck there. Ive also got my 2 geldings,but there no oil paintings,poor boys!!
Just thought you might like to know seeing as it was bought up on another thread the people who own Razzi Halim also own 2 Gucci mares as well,cant tell you what there names were but,the chap that owns them seemed very pleased with them! |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 1:54:56 PM
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Dear Vic
Forgot to mention, we have great experiance of only breeding chestnuts!! most of our broodmares over the years have been greys, by greys and out of greys, yet still if we use a chestnut stallion on them we normally get a chestnut colour foal. However, we used a Grey stallion onto a chestnut mare, we got a grey. Chestnut is the dominant colour normally. Once, we covered a bay with a bay and still got a chestnut! Mind you we sold him very well as he for some reason he would produce palominos.
When we used Razzi, our mare was grey, and even this is not a guarentee to produce a grey, Crystal Magician was by a grey out of grey, and for those who don't know him, he is a beautiful liver chestnut!
Are you now more confused?
Sue. |
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Richard
New Member
United Kingdom
22 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 5:18:23 PM
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| They say that chestnut is dominant in its recessivity... the only guarantee is that if you breed two chestnuts you will get a chestnut |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 5:45:52 PM
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| we found with our horses we put a grey to a chestnut and got a bay (sires father's colour) and a grey to a grey and also got a bay!! so they can revert to grandparents colour, or basically its pot luck what colour you get! |
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jacki
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1988 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 7:42:58 PM
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hi
there is a piece in one of the other threads (Cant find the rite one at the mo) About geneiology (spelling?) It deals with dominant and recesive genes in arabs in particular and shows how to work out in percentages what colour the foal could be! Grey is usually dominant but if the grey carries a chestnut gene recesivly and the chestnut has two recesive chestnut genes (It has to, to be chesnut!) Then its 50/50 weather the foal will be grey or chesnut! Unless you use a homoginus (spelling) Grey then no matter what colour the parents the foal will always be grey!
If your not completely baffeled!  (i think ive confused myself! ) This may help!
As for breed or buy? If you arn't desperate to have a foal from your mare to carry on her lines Then buy that way you will know what you are looking for and can get exactly what will suit you!
good luck
jacki |
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 9:39:14 PM
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I didnt realise breeding a foal was so complicated!!!(in terms of getting the right colour!) I suppose if i really wanted a grey it would be easier to buy 1. But like someone else said its not quite the same as breeding your own.
Ive just been looking on my mares pedigree,unfortunatley it doesnt say what colour her parents were( it does on 1 of my other arabs)
So does anyone have any ideas what colour the following horses were:
Glimpse of Destiny(stallion)
Shadya(mare)
Ion Sakr(stallion)
Dancing Destiny(mare)
Silver Flame(stallion) im guessing this 1 is grey
Shriphala(mare)
Im just trying to see if they are all chestnuts,in which case the chances of getting a grey are really going to be slim!! I suppose it would help if i knew what colour foals she had had in the past,i know she has bred a few,& i know 1 of them was chestnut.
Just in case anyone might be able to find out for me...i dont know if you can,her name is "Sahirah" |
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 9:40:50 PM
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| Sorry i meant to put a "thanks" on the end of that,but i was distracted by my rugrat!! Thanks again!! |
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Diane Latham
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
151 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 10:40:47 PM
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Hi Vic
Sahirah - chestnut 1988.
Breeding record:
1994 bay colt by Dilmoon (grey)
1996 chestnut filly (died at birth) by Flying Duke (chestnut)
1998 chestnut filly by Master Chance (chestnut)
2000 chestnut colt by Master Chance (chestnut.
The last three could only be chestnut.
If you don't want a chestnut foal don't use a chestnut stallion. If you want a grey foal, use a grey stallion and pray.
We used the same grey stallion on a bay mare and a chestnut mare. The bay had a grey colt (her previous two foals who were full sisters and by a grey stallion were grey and bay) and the chestnut who had previously produced two greys to two different grey stallions had a chestnut filly!
I suggest you buy if you want something specific because the chances are you won't get what you want with just the one breeding.
Hope this helps.
Di |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 10:59:37 PM
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hi again
there seems to be some confusing talk about colour dominance. Essentially, chestnut is a true recessive gene, which means that a chestnut mated to any other colour will not produce chestnut.
unless
As it is recessive, it can be carried UNSEEN by horses whose coat colours are anything other than chestnut. When any two such animals mate, of any colour, if they BOTH carry the recessive chestnut gene then the foal has a good chance of being chestnut.
A chestnut horse has only chestnut genes, in simple terms, because it has to get both its chestnut genes off each parent in order to be chestnut.
This is particularly disappointing to the breeders of blacks, including Simeon Sadik, who had produced chestnut foals to black mares!
Two chestnuts must produce chestnut, which is the nature of the recessive gene.
Grey on the other hand is best not considered to be a colour as such. Every grey horse has a basic colour, chestnut, bay, black or whatever. Grey should be considered to be like a "fault" in the colour, which causes greying. Grey does not follow rules of dominance and recession. It can only be passed on through one grey parent, on a simple one in four ratio grey to another colour if the grey parent itself had only one grey parent.
Where a grey horse has inherited the grey "fault" from both parents, then by simple genetics, the gene it contributes to its offspring will have a grey "fault", and the foal will be grey. (BOTH its genes had the grey factor)
I have five grey females, one will produce only grey foals,to grey, chestnut and bay stallions as she has inherited the grey from both sides. Her foals may never produce a grey, as they have only the grey "fault" in one of their two genes. they could pass the non grey one on to their own foals.
My stallion, despite two grey parents, has not, and produces grey and chestnut foals.
I hope this has helped.
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 11:08:53 PM
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It really is down to chance then! Oh,well!!I knew the last foal she had was a chestnut,but i was hoping she might have had a grey. From the looks of it there isnt going to be much chance of getting a grey,mind you it could be worse..i could want a black..& theres no wat in a million years id get 1 of those!!
Its lovely to find out what she has bred,i wonder where they all are now & it would be lovely to see how they all turned out.
Thanks for finding out about her for me!!!! |
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jacki
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1988 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2003 : 08:08:06 AM
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hi
pat you put that so much beter than i did thank you!
My friends stallion will only produce grey! All of his foals are grey and my mare is in foal to him so i know im getting a grey! im just praying for a colt to geld! poor thing has no chance if its a boy [;).
if you are interested in his foals look at cliffend arabians website!
good luck
jacki |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2003 : 08:44:07 AM
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Dear Pat WW,
Interested to read your excellent information on colour genetics. Over the years I have longed to breed a grey colt, we have sat for hours in the stable hunting for the elusive grey hair on our foals eyelids! now I have given up, and unusally for me, I have bought in a grey colt.
I think Vic, if colour determines your goal, then like me, perhaps you will have to buy rather than breed?
Sue
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2003 : 09:33:39 AM
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hello again
yes greys do look good, and even when they inherit the white socks in a few years no one will notice! Serioulsy though, greys do carry a higher risk of melanomas, so as a matter of breeding policy i would prefer not to cover my grey mares with my grey stallion, so that foals produced do not carry "double grey".
I think as breeders we should also think to the future, We are surely not trying to recreate the 'white horses of the Camargue' which are born black. Connemara ponies were originally more solid colours including dun and are now predominantly grey.
One mare class at the recent North Western were all grey. I am pining for a good solid bay colt for my grey mares, but canot afford the quality I would like! |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2003 : 12:30:11 PM
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My mare is grey by a black stallion out of a grey mare and the stallion she has gone to is double grey so I'm guessing the foal will almost certainly be grey.
But what would she produce to say a double chestnut stallion or a double black stallion? Would she produce a bay which is my least favourite colour.  |
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