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Acorn Arabians
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2052 Posts |
 Posted - 31 May 2003 : 4:30:56 PM
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My Grey stallion has produced two grey foals to a chestnut mare, and a bay foal to a bay mare -she was by a chestnut.
I have always liked chestnuts and bays, however I do not own a bay and several of my mares are grey!
Sometimes one must look past the colour if it is a good horse.JMO
Ive had people come specifically to look at chestnut foals and they have purchsed a grey one!
Only you can decide, if it makes you happy I say "go for it" |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2003 : 6:57:11 PM
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I am going to simplify the coat colour genetics to two genes (although there are many genes which play a part): "G" which is a dominant grey gene and if a horse has this gene it can only be grey and "x" for any other colour gene.
If one or both parents are "GG" then they can only produce greys. If one or both parents are "Gx" then they can pass on "G" genes or "x" genes and could produce homozygous greys, heterozygous greys or coloured offspring.
My grey mare had a chestnut dam so she isn't "GG" and she was mated to Crusader who has produced chestnuts so he isn't "GG" either. My stallion is grey but he could be "GG" or "Gx".
Now to the perils of breeding. The stallion mentioned above should have been by Arabian Beauty (and a filly)! My mare was covered by him, scanned in foal, loads of money changed hands and then she reabsorbed the foal. As AB went back to Spain she went to Crusader the following year. Another lot of swabs, vets fees, keep fees etc. I desperately wanted a filly and ended up with a colt who cost me about £3500 before he even hit the ground. As he was accident prone he cost a lot more subsequently and I didn't want a stallion!
It is fantastic to breed a really nice foal but you have no guarantee that you will get the sex you want (sods law says you won't) and two champions can and often do produce very ordinary foals. If you buy you see what you are getting (but remember foals change a lot as they grow up), you get the colour and sex you want and you can see the temperament.
If you ring about a foal the breeder should ask you what you are looking for as they may have several foals but nothing that is what you want. You are lucky in wanting a gelding as it should be reasonably easy to find a nice gelding at a reasonable price. Don't dicount one because he is grey. I wanted a chestnut gelding and couldn't find what I wanted so I eventually went to see a grey stallion that I kept being told about. It was love at first sight, we paid for the owners to have him gelded for us (and paid more than we intended to pay) and have now had him for 22 years; he has just had his 30th birthday.
I have a very well bred foal due soon and if it is a colt I won't be keeping him. My priority is a really good home as I don't usually sell but with a 3 year old colt and a stallion I have nowhere to keep another colt and I already have two geldings. I would not be looking for mega money so there are good geldings available for a reasonable price. That is assuming it is a colt and not the filly I want!!!!
Regards
Barbara |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2003 : 7:53:25 PM
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I am amazed that no one has come back to put the case for breeding your own.
IF you have a well bred mare of the type and conformation you want and
IF you can find a stallion that you love and suits your mare and
IF you can afford the stud, vet, keep fees etc
IF your mare gets in foal and
IF your mare has a healthy foal and
IF you don't have large vets fees and
IF you have the colour and sex you want in the foal
WHOOPEE, you've won the jackpot.
You MAY get something of the quality you couldn't afford to buy. However, you have to think if the nick doesn't work and you get the opposite of what you want. What do you do with the resulting offspring? Do you keep it and then can't have what you really want?
I have a little mare I bred, on paper she is stunning but in real life she is very average but the sweetest little soul you would ever meet, real live in the tent , sleep on the end of the bed! As I have my own land it is less of a problem to keep her than if I was renting stabling and grazing so she stays here unless a really good home turns up. However, she still cost the same to keep as a stunning horse and still requires the same jabs, farrier, feed etc. I will not advertise her as I feel one day someone will fall in love with her and she will go to the right home for a nominal sum as a family pet which she will love.
I hope all this helps you to make the right decision as there is no "right and wrong" but if you have very specific requirements you are more likely to meet them by buying the right horse.
Regards
Barbara |
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amy
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
135 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 10:57:45 AM
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Hi Folks
Just browsing through and thought I might add that when I decided to cover my mare my wish was for a chestnut filly! I knew that with my mares father (Al Maurab) was chestnut, the stallion i was using was chestnut with his mother being chestnut the possibilties were good. My mare is bay with a handful of grey about her body. She is four and her papers state that she is grey. what are the chances of her actually going grey totally. How did I manage to get chestnut with flaxen mane & tail from this combination???
Aim |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 11:26:32 AM
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I can think of one other reason for breeding your own, namely wanting a specific combination of bloodlines, in which case breeding might just be your only option. One other thing to be aware of is that in some families certain traits can be closely related to colour. For example you might not want to breed your stunning chestnut mare to a bay or a grey stallion which was born bay, if she has a plain bay sibling or two!
Incidentaly, last year one of my grey mares had a chestnut filly, nothing particularly remarkable about that except that the filly is the first non-grey in 14 generations. This years foal (due to arrive shortly) will no doubt be grey  |
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Vik
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
67 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 11:49:46 AM
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God,i cant believe how confussing all this "getting the right colour" stuff is!! At the end of the day i wouldnt be adverse to having a chestnut foal,i own 2 chestnuts already so im not against the colour. I suppose i would like 1 in grey because they always look so good!(well,apart from when they are covered from head to toe in mud!)
Can anyone answer my question about DNA,im sure i read some where if i wanted to register a foal from my mare she would have to have a DNA test,or something like that,& i cant find where i read it!
Thanks again! |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 12:28:24 PM
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Vik,
Yes your mare will need to be DNA tested as well as being entered as breeding stock, assuming she's not already entered as such.
If you fancy a grey, then you will obviously need a grey stallion (I'm assuming that your mare is one of the two chestnuts). Its always worth asking what colour the stallion was as a foal in my view as anything that you can use to load the dice in favour of the outcome you desire is helpful. If the stallion was born chestnut, then if your mare is chestnut the options are grey or chestnut. If born bay then that becomes a possibility too. Bay/brown happens to be my favourite colour but I haven't managed to breed one since '95, however I am in with a chance for next year with two grey parents both born bay, so fingers crossed. |
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jacki
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1988 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 3:18:58 PM
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hi
the other way of finding out if a grey carries a colour gene and which it is, (This only works if the horse is flea bitten) is to check the colour of the flea bites! my mares are a red chestnut! She is out of a flea bitten grey mare by a grey stallion and her full sister is liver chestnut!
jacki |
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Woodlay
Gold Member
United Kingdom
566 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 5:34:27 PM
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Hi all -
Just one comment:
A GOOD HORSE IS NEVER A BAD COLOUR !
Annie |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2003 : 10:21:21 PM
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Anne,
As you know a fair bit about breeding blacks I wondered if you could tell me if it would be possible for my mare to produce a black foal?
My mare is grey by Blacklord Caesaro out of a grey mare who was out of two chestnut parents!
I am confused!!!! |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 12:37:29 PM
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Hi Jacki, Good idea about the flea-bites, I am not sure that it holds true though. I have two flea-bitten greys, the parents of the foal I was expecting which arrived safely this morning. However back to the flea-bites, one parent has red "chestnut" flea-bites and was born bay/brown and the other has black flea-bites and was born a bright chestnut. The foal is dark brown but is bound to go grey.
Also two chestnuts cannot produce a grey, every grey has at least one grey parent.
Ann you are quite right no good horse was ever a bad colour.
Mike
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khira
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
182 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 2:12:20 PM
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Hiya Lisa
Yes it is possible for your grey mare to produce a black foal as she is black bred. It is also possible for two grey parents to produce a black foal. Simeon Sadik's sire was grey and i think his dam was too (although dont quote me on that). My friends black colt is by a black mare who was by two greys though. Its like with my mare, Khira is black and has just had a bay colt. He is black bred so it is possible for him to produce blacks in the future if we decide to keep him as an entire. My mare's grandsire is Blacklord Caesaro. How do you know the stallion you have put your mare to is double grey? Who is it? Also when is the foal due.?
nic |
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jacki
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1988 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 6:58:10 PM
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mike
I dont no where i heard the thing about fle bites  does the chesnut flea bitten have the chesnut gene and the black bites a black gene (doesnt mean they are dominant) God im confusing myself! Which before anyone else says it i no isnt hard
Congratulations on the foal! is it a colt or filly and more to the point what you wanted Can we get some pics in the new arrivels please
Jacki |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 10:29:27 PM
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Mike,
It is possible for two chestnuts to produce a grey because it happened!
Grey Mare by Chestnut sire (Chestnut/Chestnut) out of chestnut dam (grey/bay).
Khira,
Looked up my mares first foal - by a brown stallion who had two black parents and her foal was BLACK! Should have found this out before I asked (silly me) I thought he was a bay for some reason. The stallion she has gone to this year is Chi Lin Tienshan who has all grey parents, grand parents and great grand parents except one great grand parent on his sires side who was bay. She will hopefully have a foal next year if all goes well and I don't care what colour it is as long as they are both OK! |
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pat ww
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3459 Posts |
Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 10:53:36 PM
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I would say Mike is right, a grey must have a grey parent. Do you actually know the chestnut dam (grey /bay) did not turn grey? some have held on to their base colour up to their teens before the grey comes through.
Grey parents can turn white after their children do.
Alternately, could the stud with the chestnut sire have had a grey stallion which covered the mare?
Mistakes do happen. Some time ago, a friend of mine sent her chestnut mare to a chestnut stallion, gauranteeing a chestnut foal. Resultant BAY foal was the image of the bay stallion also at the stud at the same time, but they swore black was blue that it had been covered by the chestnut.
This was in the days before blood typing and now DNA. Even 8 years ago I did not have to have my old brood mare blood typed to register her foal, and two years later could not register the next until she had her blood typed.
I would be interested if the DNA did prove that chestnut / chestnut produced grey!!! |
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ginger horse
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1215 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 08:42:30 AM
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we have a liver chestnut mare and she was bred to white khan (grey) the first time she bred a chestnut colt. The second time to the same stallion she had chestnut colt that turned grey. later she was covered by camargue too (grey) and she had a bay filly. since then she as been to a skewbald stallion 4 times and had 2 skewbald colts then a chestnut filly, and then a skewbald filly. one of the skewbald colts covered a chestnut mare and that also had a chestnut filly
j smith |
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Lisa
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2611 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 11:45:07 AM
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| Not sure if the chestnut mare went grey, her name was Crysannah Royal, would be interesting to find out! |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 4:50:17 PM
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Jacki,
First of all the foal is a filly So I couldn't be happier This is the first time I have tried this particular cross and its worked out really well
The dam of the foal (chestnut fleabites) is by a chestnut (Rasmoniet RSI) out of a grey mare who was her self by a chestnut (Mehanna) out of a grey, so its quite possible that she has an unexpressed chestnut gene.
The sire (black flea bites) is by a grey out of a grey (who had black flea bites too). The stallions sire was also by a grey out of a grey, whereas the stallions dam was by a grey out of a chestnut who was by a bay. I hope thats not too confusing! I don't see any obvious sources of black looking at his pedigree, but as the vast majority of the horses in there are greys it is possible that there is a black gene floating around unexpressed due to the carriers all being grey.
Hopefully I intend take some pictures of the filly at the weekend, weather permitting So will be able to submit her as a "new arrival"
Mike |
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jacki
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1988 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 9:27:02 PM
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mike,
Yep i do get it and no im not confused yet
Now for the important bit..........................................
Yay a filly 
  Congatulations so You goona do it again?
Cant wait for the pics
jacki |
Edited by - jacki on 05 Jun 2003 9:33:29 PM |
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Mike
Platinum Member
Eire
1872 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 10:10:48 PM
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Jacki,
Yes I do intend to repeat the cross, but next year not this year as I have some frozen semen from a German Nazeer grandson(yet another grey! )which I intend to use on the mare this year. I think that I will also be breeding the mares chestnut yearling daughter to the sire of this years foal as apart from the difference in colour she is a carbon copy of her dam, though of course I will have to wait a few years first! |
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Nick
Gold Member
United Kingdom
887 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 10:34:16 PM
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We are going to bed now up early 4am to collect semen from Halsdon
Gai Radiant to be exact for Snow Dove.Taisha is with FFatal Attraction
and Brieff Encounter with Dhruv.
Breeding can bring much joy and heartache.but buying can be the same.
Strong healthy foals are more important than sex or colour.
One small observation the ultimate thrill no matter what disipline
is these words Exhibited by breeder.
One big observation enjoy your horses bred or bought.
Exit the Dragon
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Valentine Arabians
Gold Member
United Kingdom
586 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 3:00:34 PM
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Hi Vik,
I, like so many, am completely confused about 'colouring' and recessive genes etc. Dick Reed tried to explain it to me once and I am afraid that it went in one ear and out the other (and I think there is more than just pumpkin seeds nestled amongst the grey matter!). Being a breeder myself, I don't breed just for colour - I don't care what colour or sex is delivered, as long as it is fit, healthy, has 4 legs, 2 eyes and 2 ears, not forgetting the tail! We have had 4 foals (all healthy) this year - 3 by Kordelas (grey, out of grey), they are all going to be grey - one out of a bay, one out of a grey and one out of a chestnut (her 2nd grey foal). The 4th foal is also going to be grey by Etikett (grey, out of a grey) and out of a bay!
Breeding is not a certainty and you can't guarantee anything at the end, however a mature horse could die of colic, just as easily as a foal dying, resorbed, being aborted or born dead. The Reed's have just lost a 2 months old colt foal from pneumonia! The most wonderful experience of breeding, I feel, is the foaling - watching those little front feet appear and finally the rest of the body and then Mum knickering to her baby and bonding with it and the first faultering steps and finally nursing - absolutely wonderful and it fills me with awe every time (tears, as well!) and satisfaction. Then, of course, the antics in the paddock - total time wasters!
As far as the cost of breeding is concerned  - you choose your stallion, pay the stud fee (yes, it can be expensive, but usually if something untoward happens and no live foal is born, the mare is generally eligible to return to the Stud for re-covering at no additional cost), have the mare checked in foal (Vet bill) and then sit back and wait 11+ months for baby to arrive - you have 11-12 months to spread the inital cost. Just remember the foal doesn't get registered until it is at least 3 months old. There are a lot of lovely foals out there this year, but you are going to have to pay for them - why spend a lot of money on a colt if you are going to have him cut? If he is good and comes from good breeding stock with good prospects in any field, why not keep him entire. We have bred 2 colts and we are keeping both of them entire - they will be going to the race track in Warsaw, when they are 2 1/2 yrs old, for a season to two and upon their return, will be our resident stallions.
Anyway, that is just my opinion. Keep your options open and read, read, read any and all the information you can find, not only about your stallion of choice, but breeding as well.
Good luck.
Liz Downes |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 6:31:21 PM
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Mike,
Your German Nazeer grandson sounds very interesting? I am looking for a suitable husband for my mare next year, she is an old Fadli grandaughter, (Babson bred, crossed with new egyptian!) I love the look of Nazeer, my mare is very seglawi looking. Have always dreamed of using a mega Egyptian stallion, but as my mare is not straight, I think maybe it might be wasted?
Sue |
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4531 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 8:16:10 PM
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Using a SE stallion is never "a waste". What is really important is that the stallion throws true to type and that he suits your mare. A good stallion should "stamp his mark" and improve on the mare and himself if necessary. As SE's have a smaller gene pool than other Arabians if they have been carefully bred then you should get greater predictability with what they throw.
Some SE stallion who have proved indifferent sires have "produced the goods" in their grandget; hence don't just look at the stallion but even more importantly look at the grandparents. I won't name names but there was a fantastic SE stallion in UK who didn't really produce but his grandchildren have reverted to type.
Good luck with whatever you choose. If you are unsure ask advice of a knowledgeable person. I have a SE filly foal who is of a quality I could never afford to buy (if she stays that way; they change so much) so there are pros and cons of breeding. I wanted a filly, assumed with the breeding it would be grey as colour doesn't really come into my choice for a stallion, and was lucky enough to get one.
I have a three year old colt (why wasn't he a filly) who will stay entire for another year or two to see how he turns out but if he isn't really top quality he will be cut as I prefer to have a choice of stallions rather than use "the one at home" who may not be the best one for my mares.
However, I agree with those who said that the birth of a healthy foal is magical, the icing on the cake is having the sex you want.
Regards
Barbara |
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SueB
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
3218 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 10:00:43 PM
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Hi Barbara,
I am looking for a specific stallion. I have used a straight Egyptian on this mare, but the result was not exactly what I wanted. Tracing back the pedigree I can now possibly see why. Therefore I feel perhaps something with more Nazeer blood will suit my mare.
My reason for feeling I am possibly wasting a breeding is, if I intend to bring semen in from overseas, of which I do now, then my costs are considerably higher, I must get it right! I love a gamble! I would prefer to retain a straight egyptian as my stallion. Already I have an egyptian related colt, who is this mares son, he is stunning, I wish to emulate the breeding, but use a S/E. and maybe loan a Straight mare to do this.
As I said I have flirted with some egyptian lines brought into the country, but they were not just right.
Sue
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