| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mags |
Posted - 16 Jul 2011 : 2:27:54 PM
Between the different types of arabs 
(sorry numpty alert) |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kes |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 5:49:17 PM
Callisto, you work out %'s the same as me (glad to know I was doing it right ).
I originally started working out the Crabbet % of an Arab x NF pony that I had aged 13 (first horse), it expanded to working out the full % as I found all the info so easily. She is Sauls Samantha who is 22.1% Crabbet, 31.25% Polish & 46.65% Egyptian of her Arabian breeding.
That done I moved onto doing Kes's but because of a small gap I am stuck at his dam. Kes is 19.61% Crabbet, his sire is SE but has 8% Crabbet and his dam is 31.21% Crabbet. Going back on his dam's line she is also Egyptian but because of a gap in info with one of Kes's g.g.g. grandparents I suspect a Polish name. So, I can state % of Crabbet but not certain about % of Egyptian yet, although he is by a SE. Ahhhhh!!!
Thanks to everyone who keeps putting up past links from AL, they are really useful, making my way through them slowly |
| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 2:34:25 PM
This is another good archived thread for explaining the difference...
http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?ARCHIVE=true&TOPIC_ID=19100 |
| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 2:11:39 PM
Found this definition of Old English:
Arabians imported to the UK before the Second World War qualify as Old English. If you refer to Gazder's Arab Horse Families of Great Britain 1873-1973, you can check the listing for each original import and see which of them qualify. Ben Rabba was CMK (Crabbet, Maynesborough, Kellogg) from the USA and does not qualify as Old English - lovely lines of course.
For a statistical record of Crabbet and Crabbet/GSB Arabians bred in the UK, refer to The GSB Directory (as opposed to the GSB & Old English Breeders' Directory), originally compiled by Rosemary Archer and now maintained by Caroline Sussex - this is a compendium of stud book information for horses of all Crabbet & GSB bloodlines and not limited by who chooses to list their horses as the Breeders' Directory is. |
| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 1:37:16 PM
Well I haven't tried calculating Polish/Russian/French/Spanish percentages, only Crabbet, but my method is pretty simple (if time consuming).
I use allbreeds (so if an entry is wrong then my calculations will be inaccurate),
First I print off the pedigree so I can write on it.
Then I click on the horses' names and look for information in the info box (little i in circle next to the horse's name top centre of pedigree) this frequently tells you the breeder, country of birth etc. and sometimes a Crabbet percentage which someone else has calculated. I follow back down the pedigree to find a horse that was bred by the Blunts or Lady W. That horse is 100%. If it was put to another horse that is 100% Crabbet then the offspring is 100%, if only one is Crabbet then the progeny will be 50% etc. Basically work out the percentages from the start of the pedigree and work up the pedigree to the present day adding each set of parents' percentages together and dividing by 2 to get the progeny's percentage. I round up to 2 decimal places because it gets a bit extreme at times.
I see no reason why this method wouldn't work for working out type (Polish/SE/OE/Russian/Spanish etc.)
Hope that makes sense, and I would emphasise that I am only doing this for my own interest, I am not setting myself up as an authority - this is all new to me as well - never worried that much about breeding until I came on here and started reading various threads. |
| abcoboy |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:50:22 AM
Ops forgot link - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/sophia+ali |
| abcoboy |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:49:20 AM
ahhh thanks Calisto, the H threw me!!! haha ..
How do calculate percentages of polish/egyptian etc?
This is monkey moos family |
| abcoboy |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:48:19 AM
ahhh thanks Calisto, the H threw me!!! haha .. h
How do calculate percentages of polish/egyptian etc? x |
| Mags |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:30:09 AM
Now why didnt I think of that, just ask other people to find out for me on a horse |
| parkvillenerog5 |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 11:05:17 AM
Great topic.
Im useless with percentages but im bursting to know my mares and geldings, and would be very greatful if someone could help me.Think my gelding is quite high perecet russian, and mare high egyptian but im not sure.
My gelding is here http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/solitaire+sr
and this is my mare http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ht+nygella
Thankyou and hugs in advance |
| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 09:17:37 AM
abcoboy, it stands for their sex, bit confusing because H stands for stallion, but otherwise f = filly, c = colt, m = mare etc. |
| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 09:09:48 AM
Kes
I believe that Lily is in excess of 75% Egyptian because Ffatal Attraction is himself 25%, so that would make her 81.25%, also at 15.3hh she certainly doesn't fit the height limits you mention, despite the fact that I believe her sire (GR Amaretto) is a similar height (and is SE). I found it very interesting that each of her grandparents are approx 25% Crabbet, despite being an international mix. Yes I really am turning into an anorak - I now have a notebook containing the Crabbet percentage of every horse that I have had to calculate, and am considering turning it into an excel spreadsheet....
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/zahkira
ETA I was more excited about the Crabbet than the Egyptian - all mine have been high percentage Crabbet/OE up to Lily, so I was pleased to find she had more than I expected.
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| abcoboy |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 08:54:35 AM
Using the http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/ website, if you enter your horse at the top it gives a letter after their name - what does this mean? i.e C, H, M? |
| Kes |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 08:43:31 AM
Callisto, if I have it right I have been on a similar trail to you. Kes is straight-sired Egyptian but only because his dam's breeding didn't have exactly what the Pyramid Society specify, otherwise he would have been SE. I also read that SE's should be between 14.2-15hh, may not have been the PS definitions but I read it somewhere, he is inbetween this size but not SE nonetheless. I have read the PS definitions many times and even went on a long hunt to find out why they don't except descendants of Registan, who is a Skowronek son..........but that's another topic.
Like you I spent a day working out my horse's %. Although he is of Egyptian breeding he is also 19%Crabbet. Many people (non-Arab) think if a horse is Egyptian he can't be anything else but I also read that SE's carry a % of Crabbet blood also, it's very fascinating but can make things confusing when you start out. It's also one of those topics that you start out reading a little bit about something and before you know you become obsessed and 'have to' understand it all, I would say I am about half way through at present. I understand about bloodlines and strains now, just making sense of it now to apply it to my own horse so I can work his out. |
| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 08:16:47 AM
This also explains some of the complexities in working out what 'type' of Arab you have (Egbert again explaining a specific horse's background - http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/agonia2)
Your mare is basically a Russian/Polish cross with a healthy doses of Crabbet and Egyptian, albeit being bred at Tersk, she is Straight Russian. She is a Kuhailan Moradi tracing to the great Polish foundation mare and desert import Sahara. The pedigree suggests that she is very attractive and a robust athlete.
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| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 07:50:32 AM
I think that this quote by Egbert on the Tail Female thread is very helpful too:-
Originally posted by Taylor:"......That wasnt where I got confused though I was reading about Serenity Sonbolah and she is described as Straignt Egyptian and is also Kuhaylah Ajuz Rodaniyah with her tail female going through Rose of Sharon the same as Frazer. I notice alot of the horses in her pedigree were bred at Crabbet park so does this mean she is not straight egyptian and is crabbet aswell or does it mean Frazer contains egyptian lines?? Sorry if this sounds really dumb"
Some of sE breeders for reason that are to me unfathomable (and I hope I am not sounding like a pompous a**) go through all the machinations in the world to not recognize Crabbet/Shaykh Obeyd/Blunt breeding...like 'mum' is the word. Then like you someone starts doing homework and they notice all that Crabbet blood in the pedigree. Well here is the deal, Mike went into it earlier but I'll repeat it...as a result of African horse sickness decimating a goodly number of purebred breeding stock in Egypt, the Royal Agricultural Society sent over Dr. A.E. Branch acting for the society and he came over to the UK and purchased 20+ head of horses from Crabbet. He was incredibly rude to Lady W and so she hid both Nasik and Skowronek from him. After the purchase was signed and sealed, she trotted out both horses and Branch was furious that she had not included those two in the sale saying he would have gladly taken them both! So yes, a horse can be 'straight' Egyptian but it still has a load of Crabbet and would look a good deal different but for Crabbet. But to give credit where credit is due, a long term breeding program is the product of the breeder and what the breeder feels constitutes a great horse. But 3 decades ago I became so disillusioned by the sE program and our Pyramid Society's butting in and creating a definition about a horse that was bred in Egypt and putting up pedigrees that didn't reflect Crabbet's contribution that I started taking a lot closer look at the UK and Crabbet.
All in all when considering the smaller size of the British breeding programs, the care that went into them and still does, the genuine concern Lady W had for all the horses she sold from Crabbet especially to breeders in the UK basis some of the correspondence I've seen-to my mind the greatest group of breeders in the world come straight from the UK. It is the UK programs that are most deserving of recognition and think that a resurgence of appreciation for British breds is just around the corner.
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| Callisto |
Posted - 18 Jul 2011 : 07:12:55 AM
I'm really lucky - one of Lily's previous owners asked about her on the Tail female thread, and this was Egbert's response:-
Teresa, It looks like a 75% Egyptian pedigree, of course with lots of Crabbet-tremendous sire line to Nazeer via the powerful Shaikh al Badi
-same as Ali Jamaal-and the dam line traces to the popular El Dahma. My suspicion is that your girl must be exceptionally beautiful...as the lines that are not 'straight' are via the beauteous Ffatal Attraction whose composition is amongst the greatest of American and European breeding programs: El Shaklan, Khemosabi, Bay Abi. So your filly's strain is Dahman Shawan.
Have now become somewhat obsessed about the whole thing and just spent about 8 hours working out that she is 26.39% Crabbet. While I don't think that Lily is exceptionally beautiful, she is definitely becoming prettier as she matures - she has just turned 6 |
| debs |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 10:54:20 PM
George am with you totally obsessed!!!
i have read and re-read the TF topic! Gutted that not much known about Emese...
Still love readin ab out othes tho!!! |
| george |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 10:30:04 PM
I think if you read the archived posts that Callisto has put on here you will find a wealth of information |
| Kes |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 9:57:14 PM
This is a well timed question for some (me) it seems. As I am currently delving into strains can someone with me more knowledge than me tell me my horses strain, and tail female? If it's a real pickle to work out don't worry, I will get there eventually but I am dying to know.
This is Kes, http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/oes+ibn+alqasim
I am currently reading Judith Forbis' The Classic Arabian and have just started on strains, when looking up his sire on Al Khamsa that said Saklawi, but that's as far as I got (understood ).
Carole. |
| Vik1 |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 9:02:31 PM
from a non strain knowledge person...tail female line??? Ive never heard this term before. |
| george |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 8:32:32 PM
I know what you mean, but it is becoming a bit of an obsession with me at the moment, lol |
| Paresh |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 8:31:42 PM
very good timing asking this question as I was just about to ask the same thing. |
| Mags |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 8:23:30 PM
Easy EASY?? iv been trying to work out more on an arab I looked and not got anywhere. I darent even start thinking in terms of tail female line or strain and stuff my head will explode. Giving up for now and will come back to it tomorrow when I should be working |
| george |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 8:15:19 PM
OMG!! after all this blooming time I should have just asked I have spent a couple of hours blissfully searching the Tail female line of my three purebreds and "if" I have done it correctly....and please, please tell me if I haven't! If right Tes Nabil traces back to the Saklawi strain?? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/tes+nabil
Treebie, A Saqlawiyya Jidraniyyah ? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/trebinshwm+drucila
and Nebraska's is Kohejlan-Moradi ? http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/nebraska+iv
I am absolutely fascinated with this I must admit I was a bit miffed before by it all but I have started reading The Arabian Horse, History, Mystery and Magic. All these strains and not knowing which mine are from was really irritating me....and now I am so excited, even if I am wrong I'll keep trying to work it out but I think it's right  Thanks to allbreed it's easy!! and of course this Fabulous, Fabulous forum
Just to add...this is just the Tail female and not the strain??? I think |
| debs |
Posted - 17 Jul 2011 : 3:57:51 PM
Grrrr... couldn't resist another look at Tail Female!!! Have read from start to finish in a couple of sitting!!! Love all this info, wish my brain could retain it all! Wish there was more about Al Emeer TF!!! Emese.... |
