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Fireandashes
New Member
4 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 11:49:36 AM
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Hi,
I'm a newbie to this forum. I'm doing some research into Arabian pedigrees and particularly Crabbets, and I'm confused about Darjeel. Is he classed as pure Crabbet or not? On breeding he appears to be 87.5% Crabbet, is referred to as an 'outside' stallion used by Crabbet Park but I've seen offspring by him referred to as 100% Crabbet.
Is it the case that he himself is only ever considered 87.5% but Crabbet-bred youngstock by him is considered 'pure' Crabbet by dint of being bred there?
Thanks in advance.
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2014 : 1:26:02 PM
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Darjeel was not owned or bred by the Crabbet Stud, but he was used there, so his offspring (where they were bred at Crabbet) are 100%, while he himself is not (although his breeding is 87.5% Crabbet). He is mentioned in this article which might help a bit with understanding (and covers other non-Crabbet Arabs in the UK Crabbet tradition).
The same would be true for any horse introduced into the Crabbet breeding system, their progeny are 100% Crabbet only if they are bred by the Blunts/Lady Wentworth/Crabbet Stud, any offspring before they were used in the program are not 100%, but only have a Crabbet percentage if their parents do, - if their parents are both 100% Crabbet (although not necessarily bred by the Blunts themselves) then they are 100%.
E.G. Skowronek is not 100% Crabbet, but all his progeny bred by Lady Wentworth are.
I hope this makes sense?! |
  Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
Edited by - Callisto on 02 Apr 2014 1:37:22 PM |
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Fireandashes
New Member
4 Posts |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2014 : 8:29:13 PM
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Dont get me started, the Old English lines which were around at the same time (and used, like Darjeel) are under threat, because we concentrate so much on 'Crabbet', at times - sometimes I believe it makes as much sense as someone looking at only horses bred at my stud in 80 years time, and saying it has to be over 75% Guisburn. We have all but lost Courthouse, whose owner Bill Musgrave-Clark was one of the founders of the AHS, and .....soon others follow Harwood......, perhaps we should not be influenced by another countries definition of Crabbet, and look to 'preserve' more of the 'original' lines......but I fear it may be too late already.
Off soap box and ready to dive for cover
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www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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Lindsay
Gold Member
Scotland
944 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 3:04:25 PM
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| I have a 100% Old English mare who I have been told is the last of her line left breeding (female) in the UK and the line has died out in pure crabbet from in this country. I am constantly being told to breed her to what is deemed a suitable stallion but being based in the NE of Scotland and AI and transport being prohibitively expensive my breeding choices for her are limited. I have offered her more than once on a breeding loan to those who want to use selected stallions on her but as yet (and she is now 12) no one has taken me up on the offer. As it is she will be crossed with something non arab as my choice is very limited and even if I manage a pure bred foal it will not carry on teh 100% Old English line that she has. So yes I know how you feel Guisburn |
   
Paidir dóibhsean le fiántas ina gcroíthe acu, atá coinnithe i gcaighin |
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alan
Silver Member
England
434 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 4:19:55 PM
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| We have offered extremely reduced stud fees to both our straight English stallions, Crystal Magic & Ibn Spirit, but have had no one take us up on them. These lines will soon be gone forever & a handful of breeders can't keep them going. |
  
www.spirit-arabians.co.uk |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
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alan
Silver Member
England
434 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2014 : 7:42:17 PM
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| Maybe the classes could be extended to 75%+ Crabbet/OE rather than just Crabbet. Crystal Magic is the last 100% OE stallion carrying Crystal Magician. Both our boys are clear of SCID CA & LFS. It'll be a terrible shame to lose the OE not just Crabbet lines but what can be done? |
www.spirit-arabians.co.uk |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
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guisburn
Gold Member
United Kingdom
562 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2014 : 8:12:27 PM
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Really good idea Alan, but would take some work. Perhaps were we need to start is the percentages, bring breeders together to swap breedings to our stallions/mares......and perhaps our own Convention......, or even have a parade of some of our OE horses at the National???
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www.guisburnarabians.co.uk |
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alan
Silver Member
England
434 Posts |
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Mrs DJ
Gold Member
632 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 6:20:51 PM
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I posted two years ago on the 'Marbon Meganne' thread.
My mare is very high percentage Crabbet, and 100% OE.
But, I'm a single horse owner, I keep her on DIY livery, and just don't have the finances or facilities to breed a foal, however much I wanted to.
And I love her too much to consider sending her away on a breeding loan. She's been part of my life for 15 years. She'll probably be too old for a first foal now anyway. |
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RUTHIE
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1238 Posts |
Posted - 06 Apr 2014 : 8:37:35 PM
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I have a lovely Ibn Silver daughter ....95% Crabbet, 100% OE. |
     
In Memory of Crystal Flash 2010-2012 |
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Lila
Gold Member
Netherlands
1097 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2014 : 11:03:20 AM
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| Please if you have not joined our Facebook group for OE arabians please do so and be welcome. Tell us about your OE arabian on there, and we love pictures too <3 |
M. Lankhaar |
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alan
Silver Member
England
434 Posts |
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RUTHIE
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1238 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2014 : 07:48:02 AM
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| Hi Alan....she is Tia Mia, 6 years old. Ibn Silver/Shades of Tessra. She has only been with us for a week and a bit. Early days yet and she has stood in a field for more than a year on her own. She is lightly backed. I'am settling her in and in the process of getting more condition on her and sorting her hormones. From there we shall see. She is a tadge small for me, but such a sweet mare. |
In Memory of Crystal Flash 2010-2012 |
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MinHe
Platinum Member
England
2927 Posts |
Posted - 11 Apr 2014 : 02:34:40 AM
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I wish it were possible to do something to preserve non-Crabbet English lines. I am sad to say I think the English Basilisk line through Belka is now lost: I only know of 3 mares left from the family - one (mine) is 24 this year, the other two are in their teens and one of them has been lost (last heard of in the Hull area, she was sold as a riding horse, which was a tragedy as she is impeccably bred).
I had the good fortune to see Spearmint before he was put down - a wonderful horse.
Keren |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2014 : 5:33:02 PM
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| I too am always saying I should have bred from my mare. She has lovely and rare bloodlines(97.8% Crabbet/OE) but, although I sort of rescued her to breed from I was unable to do so. I have offered her on a breeding loan to no avail. She is 22 this year and is very healthy. She has had foals in the past. If I still had my own stallion I would definitely give it a go as 22 is not really that old. There many mares older than her who have foals. |
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RUTHIE
Gold Member
United Kingdom
1238 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2014 : 6:50:38 PM
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| So is that the way forward....to put this little 100% OE in foal? |
In Memory of Crystal Flash 2010-2012 |
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alan
Silver Member
England
434 Posts |
Posted - 15 Apr 2014 : 7:59:11 PM
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| Tamilla who is your mare? I currently have Cameo Rose on loan. She is 25yrs old & Imad's first ever daughter. She is 99.98% Crabbet/100% OE. I'm interested in helping preserve these old lines but due to my health at present I'm not breeding for a while. I need a double hip replacement so I'm standing my boys at stud but not breeding for myself after this year. I have two 100% OE boys & one 100% Crabbet boy. |
www.spirit-arabians.co.uk |
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tamila
Platinum Member
England
2532 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2014 : 07:12:55 AM
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| She is Roxanna (Nashaal(Ahmoun x Nyala of Melchet) x Roxyana(Blue Grotto x Bint Roxana). I also have had a double hip replacement and have found the winter very difficult. My poor husband has had to look after the 2 mares all winter as I fell over once and he would not allow me to go down to the field again. My other mare had to be PTS 2 weeks ago at the age of 30. It was a bit of a shock as she was perfectly okay in the morning but by 3 o'clock she was very ill. |
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alan
Silver Member
England
434 Posts |
Posted - 16 Apr 2014 : 09:44:42 AM
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| Hi Tamila. I'm the lady in Suffolk who offered Roxaana a home. She has beautiful breeding & would've loved to have put her in foal to either Crystal Magic or Ibn Spirit. I'm going back to see the consultant again in May. They want to try injections first as I'm considered too young (I'm 45) for a replacement. If the injections work then I may carry on breeding for a little while longer. Gina. |
www.spirit-arabians.co.uk |
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Flowersfield
Junior Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 1:52:36 PM
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| All this 100% Crabbet and 100% Egyptian is not doing the Arabian horse any favours, though it may benefit individual breeders. |
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Callisto
Platinum Member
6905 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 2:50:10 PM
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| I agree Flowersfield, it is also misleading, since a horse can be 'Egyptian', 'Russian' etc. but still contain substantial amounts of Crabbet lines, and in the Russian case Polish as well. I think it all gets a bit 'Aryan', surely the point is to use the best horses available - better to have a well conformed 'cocktail' than a third rate 100% something or other. The reason these old breeding programmes cross-fertilised was in order to breed the best horses. |
Zahkira (GR Amaretto x Taffetta)
Linda
East Sussex |
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Nashiba
Bronze Member
235 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2014 : 11:42:36 PM
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Totally agree Callisto-just because it's is deemed to be 100% then it has to be bred from to preserve the bloodlines.
How about looking at conformation etc etc to make sure that the right genes are being passed on.
Bit like breeding for a certain colour doesn't matter what the horse looks like if it has the right genes to pass on a certain colour then hey go for it.
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Confused about Darjeel
