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Zoe Tyzack
Platinum Member
 United Kingdom
4047 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 08:25:27 AM
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Hi
The debate of the Tail docking of Dogs looks to become concrete on the 7th April if this gets through Parliment.
This means a total Ban in England and Scotland.
I was wondering what your views are on this subject
Personally i feel that the Tail Docking should not be banned as when i worked in a vets there was a Dalmation that came in with its tail completely smashed through him bashing it,hence he suffered the pain of the injury and also the risks of the operation resulting him wearing a collar untill it all healed.
Quite alot of stress there in adult life that he will remember.
I know that that breed in particular does not have their tails docked but the Tail Docking goes back Hundreds of years due to dogs hunting preventing injuries.
I have had terriers all my life and personally i would sooner them docked early in life than rather the risk of an injury later in life
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Zoe.x |
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arabic
Platinum Member
England
4562 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 11:18:06 AM
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I agree Zoe, I used to be a dog walker at a RSPCA kennels and can remember one in particular, a greyhound and bless her she kept coming back to be re-homed(another long story)and her tail got shorter bit by bit and was always either plastered or raw! where you used to get so excited and bash it against things.
Sandie |
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4711 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 11:36:34 AM
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| i agree we had the same problem with our great dane ,blood splattered everywhere where it was raw so we put a bit of hosepipe on it ,then we kept getting whacked round the legs!! |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 11:50:32 AM
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All dogs mentioned are dogs who are not normally docked at birth. So what are you saying that all dogs everywhere should be docked in case at some point in the future they injure their tail and it has to be amputated??
For every case of an adult dog who has had a tail injury I could give you ten at least of a docked dog who has suffered pain due to complications. There is scientific proof that dogs with docked tails suffer phantom pain in the amputated limb just as human amputees do. I have seen lots of dogs whose tails have been docked far too short eventually leading to arthritis in the spine because of constant pain at the base of it.And dogs with permanent weepning sores at the tip of their stumps. Many of the customarily docked breeds have good hair covering and sturdy tails and would be unlikely to ever suffer damage to a complete tail.
Even the working dog argument falls down---why are working springers left with a good 6-8 inches of tail, and show springers are docked short to the second vertebrae? You'd think it would be the other way round if the argument is to stop the tail getting tangled in undergrowth. Working collies have plumed tails just like spaniels but no one suggests docking them to stop their tails getting tangled in fences. Or working setters.
Docking tails is all about humans trying to "improve" the look of dogs. It is a fashion that has stayed around far too long and I will be delighted when it is banned. Dogs use their tails to communicate and we have no right to remove thatg means of communication.
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 1:53:56 PM
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Zan
I have worked Springer Spaniels for many years and have had a number of Field Champions.
I have also rescued a number of springers both with full tails and docked tails.
The reason Show springers have a shorter tail I do not know.
The reason working springers have a longer docked tail is so that when they get in the undercover you can get hold of the tail and pull them out.The lengeth is the length of a hand palm.If the tail is long then if they go into cover and you get hold of the tip (a long way fron the start of the dock) that can also cause pain.
I have had a number of springer that have had cut tails and this has caused pain for them.
I believe that any bred that do the same job (into the bushes or down holes {Terriers}0 should have a dock tail and done at birth.
It is very much like people pulling manes and tails ,but they continue to do it, where as a tail is docked only once.
Do you think that if a dog is out working and the tip of the tail is damaged that bit is removed and then they damage it again a bit more is taken off another amount of pain.Another operation.
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
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NatH
Platinum Member
England
2695 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 2:08:54 PM
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My girls are both docked and I wouldn't have it any other way.
Any litters I breed I would have docked & dewed while I can.
We do it for a reason, to save the dogs from harming themselves later on in life.
As long as it is done before 3 days old and by a Vet under 'proper' circumstances, I can't see the harm.
To be honest the removal of the dew claws seem to give more a reaction than docking the tail! The 'powers that be' never moan about dewing! |
Natalie
Chapel Lane Arabians
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 2:16:36 PM
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| my patterdale bitch is docked and if you saw her when working you would understand why. as with pauline's dogs ours have their tails docked to about a hands width. again it is so you can pull them out of holes as they can sometimes get in but not out. it would be dangerous for her to have a full tail. her tail was docked at birth and any of her pups would have the same. i don't agree that all dogs should be done, and i don't think that they should be shorter either. |
suzanne walsh
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Timberwolf
Gold Member
England
726 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 2:35:23 PM
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Hi All,
I have two mini Schnauzers who both have their tails docked. Eventualy I would like to breed from them as I have a dog and a bitch so mentioned the question of docking to my vet who said that it was already illegal for a vet to dock a dogs tail and the reponsibility of doing the deed was down to the breeder. I dont feel I could do this myself to newborn puppies and so any puppies we have will be left with full tails. Which incidently Schnauzers have beautiful long flagged tails. I also dont know of anyone who works a Schnauzer so I dont feel there is a necessity to dock this particular breed. Maybe the answer would be for breeders who are breeding working dogs to be legally able to have their puppies tails docked and breeds who's tails are docked for cosmitic reasons only should be banned from docking.
I'm sure it's more complicated than this but it would be nice to have an easy solution to the docking debate!!
Jackie. x |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 2:45:40 PM
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I don't agree with tail docking - full stop.
I think that it is a farce to ban it with the exception of police, army or working dogs. If they are banning it because it is cruel then it should apply to ALL dogs.
We have a JRT that is not docked. She is 10 years old now and has never had an injury to her tail.
I also have a patterdale x cairn terrier that has his tail and I wouldn't have it any other way. I am sure that he is quite pleased with his tail to as he wags it enough!
I took this quote from the BBC - Which I think says it all.
The British Veterinary Association says 90% of vets are against what it describes as a painful procedure which should only be carried out for medical reasons.
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 3:53:37 PM
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Geegeee---the Scottish Executive are banning the docking of all tails full stop, with no exemptions for working dogs---for which I am very pleased indeed
Sadly with the English bill allowing exemption for working dogs it will leave a loop hole for breeders to claim that is the case. No doubt we can expect to see long eared show type cockers who will never work with docked tails, and no doubt die-hard dockers will claim their "working" dogs have been docked in England.
It is a toatlly unnecessary mutilation. |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 4:02:18 PM
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| For over seventeen years I handled up to 30 dogs a day, some docked, some not. I spent years working in Kennels , of all kinds, before I became a vet nurse, before I ran my grooming /training business. I cannot say that I never saw dogs ( springers, and Lurcher/greyhounds) with "split" tails,I do apprieciate thatthis injury does happen, but I saw Hundreds ( sometimes whole litters) of very badly docked dogs, done by backstreet breeders, and they give the same reasons" well, you have to cos it,s a working breed". The fact that the litters were so far away from the breed standard, and were NEVER going to do a days work of ANY type seemed to be a point totally missed by these people. I have had Borzoi, shown to the highest level, ...no tail injury. I worked Dobermans in field trails, who happened to be full tails,....no injury.I trained Man-work Rotties, doing Prison Patrols, again, all with full tails. Was it just luck ?? Possibly. But for all the little dogs I saw , every 6 weeks, having more and more corrective surgery on their badly docked tails, I feel the practice of just ANYONE docking must be stopped. Incidentally I Have a pack of Border Terriers,( 5 generations... and a whippet,) who do go to ground,and this breed are one of the original working terriers, and they have historically never been docked. |
   
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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bridie
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2395 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 6:00:54 PM
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Our 2 Patterdale puppies are both docked, sadly Pip was docked by a rotty breeder so has a rotty bottom, Rosie on the other hand was docked for working and boy you can tell the difference......if Pip went down a rabbit hole we would not have anything to grab hold of, whereas Rosie has a nice docked tail.
We purposely chose this breed to do a job and we think the nicely, properly docked tails are part of what they are.....working dogs.
Mandy |
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akitamom
Gold Member
England
903 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 6:31:31 PM
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| Cant agree at all with docking,if they are born with it they should keep it,what next ear cropping coming back,i love to see boxers/rotties etc with tails. |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 6:39:38 PM
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| Of course what none of us have yet mentioned is that dogs have tails for a reason... it is their communication that is impeded by docking. This has been documented many times by several behaviourists. Most of the body language, in their stance, posture is dependant on their tail position, movement, speed of movement etc etc. Polly |
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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Tonim
Silver Member
United Kingdom
430 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 6:46:56 PM
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| I don't like docking but I can sort of see the argument from both sides regarding the docking of working breeds, but what about breeds like boxers and rottweilers is it purely done for appearance? |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
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pat day
Moderator
United Kingdom
5324 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 7:08:57 PM
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I expect some will have guessed....
I wouldnt have a dog docked unless it was for medical reasons.
I did have a rescue cats tail amputated, through an old injury (She had it when I took her on) that turned gangerous.
That was upsetting enough.
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~TREASURES AT TEMPLEWOOD~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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Judith S
Platinum Member
Wales
15686 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 7:10:12 PM
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Having never owned a dog with a docked tail I'm prob not qualified to comment on this post! We've always had collies, GSDs, Ridgeback, Labradors - all of which have long tails!
It is however quite interesting as to how "different" well to my eye anyway! - dogs that are from breeds that normally have docked tails - look when then have a full tail! I have often laughed at JRs with naturally cury, corkscrew tails, Spaniels with hughly feathered maddly waving flags, Rotties & Dobermans don't look quite as "butch" with a long tail to wag..............I could go on!!
Friends of ours have a black Labrador bitch - who sadly had to have her tail amputated because of injury............she, to my eye now doesn't look like a lab...............thankgoodness the breed standard for Labs doesn't include tail docking!!!
Sorry - I'm rambling!
Judith
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 7:13:34 PM
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OOps I stand corrected,  Glad we agree too
I will not be showing or supporting at CRUFTS this year, first time I have missed it in over 30 years. ( have a lovely litter to look after ) But I will watching from home as I have loads of buddies there, but I wonder....would it really alter the world as we know it if we stopped docking ...?? lets face it , its just a FASION, nothing more. polly |
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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swalk
Gold Member
United Kingdom
769 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 9:00:42 PM
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I think if docking is banned outright then in 30 yrs time dog owners will look back and say 'what ever did they do that to dogs for?' - after all no one would ever dream of advocating HORSE tail docking now would they!!!!
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georgiauk
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2605 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 10:18:43 PM
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Oh dear I've just put my foot down a hole, I guess that means I need my leg amputating Very against amputating healthy fully functional limbs from 3-4 day old pups, imagine if we started doing this with children |
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Deboniks
Platinum Member
England
3776 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 10:38:21 PM
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| I've always had Rotties.All of them have been docked at birth by the breeder. The trouble is reading their body language without a tail. A dog with a tail is much easier to readIt's part of their language.The dog I have now has been docked so close she has no tail at all,not even a stump |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 11:55:43 PM
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We currently have 3 "working/in training" collies, they have long, fully feathered tails (I have yet to see a collie with a docked tail). We have had working collies in the family for 30 years. Our collies work in every terrain, including brambles, blackthorn bushes, barbed wire, ditches and five bar gates, they also root out Badger Setts, Bumble bee nests, rabbit holes, etc. (they work for fun). They have never had a problem with a long tail, I think it helps to keep them balanced (a bit like having a big toe!!!). So if a collie, as in the "original, 24 hr a day" working type of dog, doesn't need it's tail docked, why do other breeds?
I haven't read a valid reason yet, apart from pulling a dog out of a hole, but surely a longer tail would be more beneficial?
Carla, xx. |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 07:40:13 AM
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Carla, you are right. There is no valid reason for this cruel act.
Just because it has been done for hundreds of years, it doesn't make it right.
Has anyone seen a puppy get his tail docked? I have. I was only about 10 or 12 years old and was round a friends house. She had Doberman puppies. We were told to keep out of the way as the vet was coming to check on the puppies. If I had known what was coming, I would have been out of that house like a shot.
The screams of those puppies will haunt me. Granted, it didnt go on for longer than a couple of minutes for each pup but they were in discomfort for days after.
What sort of person would knowingly do this to an animal and what sort of person condones this? |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 08:03:23 AM
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We have two german shorthaired pointer puppies (well 11 months old now) they both have their tails docked and dew claws removed. We used to have a GSH pointer who did not have his tail docked, he had a form of eczema had his tail was constantly spraying blood everywhere whenever he wagged his tail. Sadly at a year old he had to be put down as he lost all the hair on his body and was just in agony, after months of expensive veterinary treatment there was no choice.
Going back to the tail docking, my pointers will be trained gun dogs, and already go through undergrowth all the time. My bitch Maddy, as already been treated for a lump on her heard (it had to be drained) this the vet said was caused through her ferreting around so much. She and her brother also both have lumps on their ears, also caused by bramble bracken etc. This is unavoidable. I am therefore in favour of tail docking in working dogs, as I know mine would damage their tails with their running about.
Nicky |
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 08:10:07 AM
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ALmost tongue in cheek - but to say what you have said and then say that you are in favour of tail docking makes me want to say "well in that case, because the ears get damaged, why not cut them off as well?!"
Do you see what I am trying to say? If your dog keeps getting caught up through going through brambles, then surely the answer is to avoid brambles???? It's a less painful option.
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