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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
 Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 12:32:01 PM
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Gun dogs work in a tougher terrain than collie dogs. If you live in the countryside, brambles cannot be avoided.
Nicky |
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 12:40:35 PM
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When we took Maddy to the vets he explained that it tends to be gun-dogs that get this condition on the head and ears because they are always scrabbling about in the undergrowth. Labradors, and springers get these too. Our Veterinary Surgeons are a Country practice specialising in Farm, horses and small animals, and this condition tends to be seen more in the countryside (NOT TOWNS WHERE THERE IS NO BRAMBLE!!!!!) 
Anyway this is supposed to be a debate, I am entitled to my view, as others are too.
Nicky
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 2:40:06 PM
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Nicky of course you are entitled to your opinion !!!
What you say is a little bit contradictory though---the injuries to your dogs' heads and ears is why you agree with docking, but your vet says labs are prone to these injuries too. Labs tails are never docked---and you have hit the nail right on the head re my earlier argument on working dogs---they do much the same job as GSPs.
As for the town country aspect you have brought in---well that certainly makes a mockery of show and townie dogs being docked.
However I live and work in the countryside ---with dogs. Boarding, rescueing and just living with and loving them With my many years experience of dogs in the countryside I am very much against docking, for all the reasons I have given above. |
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pro1
Bronze Member
Wales
220 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 8:55:11 PM
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| Their talking about this on crufts now. I dont agree with tail docking if its done for apperance as it is in boxer etc, then in my opinion its cruel. I saw a vet programme where a couple brought a litter in to get docked and it was sad to watch. |
   
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nicolanapper
Platinum Member
England
4247 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 9:15:51 PM
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We too have had regular contact with breed society rescuers and for individual breeds especially gun dogs, it is important that they are docked.
I give up though, I cannot be bothered to put across my argument any longer, I will stick with the BASC, Gun dog breed societies, and local veterinary surgeons who are open minded.
As a matter of interest, Zan I bet you are opposed to shooting and gun dog training!?
No doubt, tail docking will be banned, but you will never stop cruelty to animals, starvation, beatings etc which is where the true arguement lies, not with loving dog owners who happen to have had their dogs tails docked.
Trouble is with do-gooders they always try to hit the soft target not the really cruel owner/breeeders, they would be too frightened to meet half the B......d's who abuse animals, be they horses, dogs, cows or cats.
Nic |
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Zan
Platinum Member
Scotland
3213 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 09:18:49 AM
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| Originally posted by nicolanapper
We too have had regular contact with breed society rescuers and for individual breeds especially gun dogs, it is important that they are docked.
I give up though, I cannot be bothered to put across my argument any longer, I will stick with the BASC, Gun dog breed societies, and local veterinary surgeons who are open minded.
As a matter of interest, Zan I bet you are opposed to shooting and gun dog training!?
No doubt, tail docking will be banned, but you will never stop cruelty to animals, starvation, beatings etc which is where the true arguement lies, not with loving dog owners who happen to have had their dogs tails docked.
Trouble is with do-gooders they always try to hit the soft target not the really cruel owner/breeeders, they would be too frightened to meet half the B......d's who abuse animals, be they horses, dogs, cows or cats.
Nic
Of course I am opposed to shooting----I'm sure you already knew that form earlier posts of mine, but this certainly isn't the place to go into how pheasants are reared for shoots etc. Although I don't eat meat myself, if you want to eat meat, eating a wild animal who has been killed with one shot after living a happy natural life is an awful lot better than eating meat from intensive farming. Sadly that is not what the vast majority of shooting that goes on nowadays is all about. But this is way off topic now
There are good gun dog trainers and bad. I know a game keeper near here who takes dogs to train and routinely uses electric shock collars ---I also have boarding customers who shoot and their dogs are much loved members of the family---so I don't generalise and dislike everyone who picks up a gun.
I don't know if I am one of the do-gooders you refer to, but I am involved in working against cruelty right across the board, and believe me, have had some scarey runs in with evil face to face. Tail docking though is a legal matter that can, and is, being sorted democratically, so I am a supporter of the ban. I know an awful lot of vets, having had to work with them closely over decades, and I don't know a single one who is in favour of docking. Surely that says something??? |
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 10:57:19 AM
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a working terrier should have a docked tail for pulling them out of holes. as pauline pointed out earlier, if the tail were to be left long there is a risk of damage being done to it through not being grabbed in the right place.
as for expression and balance, anyone who has seen my patty bitch will know that she is very good at showing her expression with her tail. it's been done correctly and at the right length, therefore she has plenty to wag, stick in the air or tuck under her bottom. as for balace, this dog runs like a loon for ages. she runs circles round us and other dogs and has no problems with balance what so ever.
i also have had boarder collies all my life, i have a dog and a bitch now. all my dogs have worked with sheep and we take them all over for walks. however, they simply can't get into some of the places my patty gets into and i have had to drag her out several times by her tail. if you want to call me cruel go ahead. however, wouldn't i have been crueler to leave her stuck in the holes to starve to death? or should i have bought myself a patty with a full tail to save me having to dig it out a bit, i could have saved myself some time and just grabbed the end of the tail and ripped her spine instead.
i have seen litters docked and if it's done the right way they don't have any problems. i suppose we should stop tagging cows sheep and pigs. though pigs have notches put in their ears when first born. bullocks have their horns taken out and sheep have their tails docked. maybe we should also stop gelding our colts? there is a far bigger risk in the op and far more pain afterwards. i don't see anyone clammering on about that! |
suzanne walsh
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geegee
Platinum Member
England
3682 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 11:58:26 AM
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There are loads of practices that go on with animals that I don't personally agree with but the point here is whether tail docking is necessary and more importantly humane.
If a working dog has it's tail and is stuck in a hole, then why can't you just pull the tail from closer to the body? So therefore, where is the justification for docking a tail.....
and, as I quoted before, 90% of vets are against the procedure. Surely this has to say something.
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 12:03:55 PM
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| my vet is all for it. he's an equestrain and country vet so understands where a real working dog is coming from. like i said, if the tail is long there is a potential for a mistake to happen. |
suzanne walsh
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 12:05:13 PM
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Suneanarab,....I have working terriers, a whole pack of them, Borders, and they can be removed from holes without me "ripping their spines"and Borders have never been a docked breed.I would not leave a dog to starve to death, just because they have a tail does not stop/ enable them going in too deep.
You may have seen litters done " and if its done the right way" IS the crux of the matter, IT often is NOT done the right way.
Sheep are docked to stop an agonising death by being fly blown.
Pigs ears do not have the same central nervous system connection as a dogs tail.
Cattle are de-horned to prevent death/serious injury to people and other cattle.
We geld colts and other entire mammals to enable us to keep them in Family groups.
NONE of the above is done for an out dated , totally aesethic, fashion.
Why dock Patterdales and not Borders,? why do Springers and not Collies?
Why do Boxers and not Dalmations? Because it has never been the fashion, thats all. How many "working " dogs actually work these days, a tiny , tiny fraction of some breeds. This is a serious mutilation , quite unessesary these days, and to make it worse it is often done by people you would not trust to slice a loaf of bread straight. Just because we have done something for a long time does not mean it should continue, we used to Fire horses Tendons, we know know this is a useless procedure.
We used to send kids up chimney, ...not any more( although, during the 6 weeks holiday..I am tempted !)
I hear people say we have docked breeds "all my life", well I have been working will dogs All my life ( not anymore , just do my own) and I have seen the damage done to dogs for this reason of "appearance".
It is time to stop.
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Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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Pauline
Platinum Member
England
3185 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 1:05:34 PM
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I still believe that working springers and cockers should have their tails docked.
As for other things WHY do you all as show people remove a third of the mane or get your horses too stand in VERY unnatural positions and keep going at them if they are not perfect for you.
I just see so many horses with bad backs etc
Pauline |
Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 1:17:12 PM
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This debate is going to go on and on, but I love to read other peoples views on the subject, I can see that there are pro's and con's for both arguments. As I said before, we have 3 working/in-training collies, with full tails. They will work and play in all terrains, they love it!! They also get tangled up in bramble and attempt to go down badger setts and rabbit holes, but I have never seen a good reason to have them docked. If we really have to drag them out of a situation, we grab the base of their tail, not the end. We have also had 3 generations of Fox Terriers, who are forever getting themselves into stupid situations - we had to wreck a stack of haylage to rescue one of them. We have also had to dig one out of a particularly large rabbit hole.
So really sorry if I am being blind, but I still don't see a good reason to dock a dogs tail, but that's just my opinion.
Carla, xx. |
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pro1
Bronze Member
Wales
220 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 01:38:51 AM
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| pauline, I agree with you we've shown arabs for many years and i've noticed that the british are slowly following the american by removing a third of the mane and i dont understand why. As for tail docking, if it benifits the life of the animal then I agree with it but not for apperance reasons.If someone can tell me why people remove a third of arabs mane then I would be very greatful. |
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susan p
Gold Member
Scotland
915 Posts |
Posted - 10 Mar 2007 : 1:11:10 PM
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Well said Polly,just because things have been done like that in the past,it doesnt make it right,if that was the case there would still be cock fighting and badger baiting!
A civilised society must be able to move on and correct the mistakes made in the past,constantly questioning,"is this right?"and not just blindly doing things because its always been done that way |
www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 2:44:20 PM
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actually polly boarder terriers DO have their tails docked depending on where they are bred. we have working boarder terriers around here that do have docked tails. however, the undocked tail of a patterdale is longer than that of a boarder terrier. i'm not saying that just because a dog doesn't have it's tail docked that you will rip out it's spine, nor am i saying that you couldn't dig a dog out. in fact if you read my post properly you will see that i do have to dig my bitch out on a regular basis.
the point of docking si that it has been done for a reason for many years. and you will also see that i against just anyone being able to dock them. they should be done by a vet! the other point is that when it is done right there is very little pain and the pup gets over it very quickly. my point about other animals is that they have these things done for a reason, it doesn't make it anyless correct just coz you happen to agree that that particular practice does have a purpose. myt actual point is that we do things to animals that are far worse than docking. at least once it's done it's done and over with. unlike bull dogs who suffer all their lives coz of fashion, or any other flat faced dog for that matter.
it's interesting to see how few comments there are on the crufts message board about docking. it's personal to the breed and breeder/buyer. if you don't like then don't buy a docked dog, but don't condem the rest of us that do make sure it's done correctly. |
suzanne walsh
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 3:39:05 PM
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My family had a lovely docked German Shorthaired Pointer. It always seemed horrible that she should have been denied her tail. Whether she had been working or a pet, why do it for "fashion" ? English Pointers have tails, don't they?
I currently have a Dobermann WITH TAIL.
hmmmmmmmm....
She was lucky to keep it. Some of her litter WERE docked, some not and those docked were docked to different lengths....because of a fashion whim? No, because the tails of Dobes are very fragile and four pups in the litter had dislocations or actual breaks and HAD to have them docked.
I personally think Dobes should HAVE the tails they were born with and that selective breeding should eliminate fine tails in favour of more robust ones but in the meantime, an arthritic tail is worse than a properly docked one ~ second best ~ but what can you do for a dog with an accident prone tail?
Diana Dobe has had injuries to the end of her tail and yes, we know all about spray patterns of blood here.....ceiling still got some! She now has a very leathery BALD tail tip, but at least her tail is strong enough to keep it intact.
Bad breeding has led to SOME breeds such as the Dobe having accident prone tails....and what do breeders do instead of taking on the lengthy process of improvement by more selectively breeding only dogs with thick tails ~ they take the fast track, if the tail offends thee, cut it off!
I do see the argument for docking SOME working dogs with accident prone tails but better improve the tails by future breeding, I say.
Anyway, about pulling terriers from holes by the tail ~ yes, I see the point to an extent but surely, just grabbing it close to the rump is common sense for a good grip? It makes no difference if one inch or six waves free, does it?
I don't understand why some Spaniels of different sorts have been customarily docked either when others and even Setters with feathers have not.
I personally welcome the view that docking should be banned, although I, through experience of a bleeding tail all too often, appreciate the concerns of some owners of some working dogs IN THEIR CURRENT FORM.
If we are to ban docking, then perhaps we shall HAVE to improve breeding and this can only be good for the dogs surely?
No one would consider NOT surgically removing a damaged tail and I appreciate why some people, such as Dobe owners, might see docking AT THIS POINT in the life of the breed as a more humane option and preventative measure to make sure none of the bloody tail syndrome actually happens.
Can breeders of dogs such as Dobes just consider selective breeding for sound tails ?
Diana looks lovely WITH her tail and is very expressive with it. She was born with it and deserves to have it. It's a pity not all her litter were so lucky.
This is going to run and run but if humans will alter the basic blueprint for a dog, then I suppose they feel that "nature" , which is hardly "nature" any more when you consider the exaggerations of some breeds, MUST have certain weaker traits adjusted in keeping with the purpose for which the type was adjusted in the first place ~ far away from the sort of natural animal a well mixed mongrel might typify!
No wonder Cockerpoos and Labradoodles, Puggles, Chugs and the like are becoming so popular ~ maybe there is an underlying desire to have a dog that really is a doggy dog and not a product of man's desire for "type"?
Then again, all the above have been labelled "designer" themselves, haven't they?
Still, they all seem to have tails AND dew claws ~ has anyone ever seen one ripped off~ seriously, though, that's always the argument for their removal and I've not seen or heard of it amongst even working dogs I know that have them.
All those with working dogs, am I correct and is it really a risk, please? |
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Tahir
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
4572 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 11:27:32 PM
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I have working dogs - collies, all with dew claws, and I have seen them ripped off whilst working, the dogs wimpered for a couple of strides, then carried on working. Not nice, but not the end of the world. Personally, the two cases that we have had, we let the dogs lick them clean, we were ready to intervene, but didn't interfere too much. Next day, the dogs have forgotten their missing claw, and are happy to carry on working. Maybe we are lucky that they didn't get infected, but believe me, our dogs do "work" in all terrains and love their job, with or without dew claws.
Carla, xx. |
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polly
Platinum Member
2183 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 12:00:44 AM
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Sunarab- Borders should never be docked but I know that in some parts, they are , as Breed Standards mean nothing to some people.I am not condeming anyone who has a docked breed , really I am not ( we have a JRT) as a rescue we had no say in weather her tail was to be docked or not, and no, it was not done by a vet.
I am not sure that we can say that when it is done correctly their is very little pain either, as research has shown for some time now, evidence of phantom limb pain, just as it would be expected if any mammal lost any limb I cannot see why, because we do things far worse to animals, and I agree we do, that we should continue with any other "less" practice. And I am happy to see that some of the flat faced breeds are now being selectivly bred so that they can breath, and give birth without the need for a "C" section, and that these smaller heads are being put up by A list judges. I can see that we will never agree, and yes there are bigger issues of animal welfare far more important than this one, but I still feel as strongly as I ever did on this topic, and hope that you feel I am intitled to my opinion, that has not changed in 30years, since I saw my first litter born ( and they were Patterdales)We may have to agree to disagree on this one , but I do think , some time soon, this law will come in to force and more good than harm will be done by it. Polly |
Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk |
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suneanarab
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
1818 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 12:16:59 PM
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hi polly, of course i think you are right to have your opinion, we all are and that is my point. there are always cases like this where we can debate the issue and put points forward for the pros and cons. no-one should be labled as completely wrong or right. i agree that the bill will be passed at some point. i just think it's a shame that so much time is put into something like this while there are far more importent issues that need sorting. i'm for anything that stops harm being done, and if this bill stops the idiots who think they know what they are doing then so be it. unfortunatly i don't think that that is going to happen as much as people would hope.
as i have said before, the good thing about al is that we can have debates about things. they can also get very heated, but at the end of the day no-one should fall out over an opinion. it's not worth it for most of the things we debate. i'm sure that there are lots of things that we all agree on, that far out weight the things we are against. |
suzanne walsh
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charlijessandatiqa
New Member
United Kingdom
8 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 5:24:00 PM
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| Well I agree with the 'ban it' side. I think it's cruel. I also don't pull my horses manes or cut a third of mane off or anything like that.I don't make my horses stand in un-natural positions (I don't do or wish to do in hand showing)So I'm not a hypocrite and I think it's cruel.It's the waggy tail that is part of the appeal with dogs! |
A horse is like a best friend, they're always there to nuzzle you and make your life a better place |
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JanC
Bronze Member
United Kingdom
221 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 6:24:40 PM
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Hi all
Did anyone hear the interesting debate on this very subject on the Today programme the other morning? Had me screaming at the radio as usual but....the guy from one of the breed societies (pro-docking of course) said that the reason working dogs had their tails docked was TAX. Simple as that - back in the 18C a tax on working dogs was imposed and having their tails off proved the tax had been paid.
I'm fiercely against docking - it is purely a fashion statement - have the US stopped cropping Great Danes and Dobies ears yet? Maybe that'll catch on over here next!
Jan |
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Wyllow
Platinum Member
United Kingdom
2885 Posts |
Posted - 15 Mar 2007 : 10:28:38 AM
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Now THAT really gets me going ~ CROPPING!!!!!!!!!
It's nothing short of MUTILATION and only done to make the dog look "fiercer". I cannot put into words my thoughts on the hideous results that are such an unnatural look for any dog.
How would the breeders like their ear lobes cut off becuase it made them look too "soft" ?????
I spent some time in the USA a few years ago and loved the rural area of Wyoming that I was in, the people, the country ~ everything and so I'm not having a "go" at the Americans as such but it's BEYOND me why an "educated" nation still allow cropping, cosmetic docking and the exxageration seen in some "Americanised" versions of certain breeds.
Then again, I hate the bronco and bull riding in rodeos and although THAT is bad enough, what on earth happens to these terrorised animals when they become too dangerous or their spirit is broken?
Still, back to dogs!
Maybe the signal sent out by the British Kennel Club that sets the International standard in a way because of the golbal reputation of Crufts and the like, will reverberate eventually in America and other countries which crop. Let's hope so!
Carla, thanks for mentioning the dew claw issue as I've always wondered if this was a justified thing to do for working dogs to prevent injury the way I've wondered about SOME tails on CERTAIN breeds of dogs that work or who have inherently weak tails.
Not ideal in some minds to de~claw but the better of two evils some might say ? Maybe better a clean controlled cut than an uncontrolled tear ~ I keep an open mind ~ my dogs don't "work" the way yours do! |
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