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 Arabs and low confidence when hacking out on own
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Pauline
Platinum Member


England
3185 Posts

Posted - 22 Aug 2009 :  8:12:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Pauline's Homepage  Click to see Pauline's MSN Messenger address  Send Pauline a Yahoo! Message Bookmark this reply Add Pauline to your friends list Send Pauline a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Tabita

Will talk to you on messenger later.

You know what the horse has been through take your time with him he is a nice horse.


Pauline

Pauline Higgs
Equine & Human Holistic Therapist
www.thegentlestouch.co.cc
www.endurancegbmidsouth.co.uk
Berkshire / Hampshire Border
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debs
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
3218 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  06:34:34 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add debs to your friends list Send debs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Deebee, sorry for my ignorance... whats free shaping?

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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
4531 Posts

Posted - 23 Aug 2009 :  09:16:30 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add barbara.gregory to your friends list Send barbara.gregory a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My old gelding loved going out, alone or in company, never had a problem. The horses I have sold have also been fine out on their own. May just be a confidence thing and I suppose some bloodlines are more confident than others. My 4 year old boy hasn't yet been backed but he leads out on his own quite happily and is very confident and non spooky so I am sure he won't be a problem. He is very "in your face" and full of his own importance so I suppose that helps! He was going to be backed this year but due to job uncertainty I didn't feel I could afford the money without knowing if I would have a job (and I am nowhere near good enough to do it myself).

Barbara

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shah
Gold Member

England
1356 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2009 :  08:20:05 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shah to your friends list Send shah a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for all your advise and support

Had a lovely ride on Sat evening up the Downs with my OH on foot, first time Tuki actually trotted on the fields up the top. It wasn't a terribly forward going trot but at least it was moving forwards in between the sheep.

I have booked myself a lesson on 4 Sept, spoke to the trainer on Fri after Arachnid's lesson and we've agreed it'll be a challenge! Had to agree that OH can have golf lessons as a trade off... Tuki is terribly unbalanced so a bit of low key flatwork will probably help.

We will also (all being well) do a little 16k pleasure ride in Sept, just so that he can start seeing the world. It will be a good test to see what he's like at a party!

Will keep at it!! Have used an old cowboy trick to get him going this weekend (very ugly but effective) and also started getting him used to the wipwop so between the two I might be able to use the legs less...

West Sussex
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shah
Gold Member

England
1356 Posts

Posted - 24 Aug 2009 :  08:21:24 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shah to your friends list Send shah a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh, and yes what is free shaping???? I know clicker training but as debs never heard of free shaping???

West Sussex
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faymouse
Silver Member


United Kingdom
410 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2009 :  02:38:57 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add faymouse to your friends list Send faymouse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I had an Arab gelding on loan a few years ago who was not happy to hack out alone in open spaces.quite happy to do road work but in the open he would "see" something far off in the distance and you could feel his heart racing and his legs trembling, poor boy. In the 18 months that I had him he got more uptight not less and it seemed the kindest thing to let him go back to his owner where he would have company to ride out with again.
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Kash
Platinum Member


England
3777 Posts

Posted - 25 Aug 2009 :  3:15:40 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Kash to your friends list Send Kash a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Tabita,

I've emailed you

Lauren

PS Look forward to hopefully seeing you at Firle Park!

 
Photographs by Emma Maxwell and Peter Grant
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deebee
Silver Member


262 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  10:01:07 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add deebee to your friends list Send deebee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi guys, sorry for the delay!

Free shaping is a way of allowing the horse to be rewarded for self-expression, or figuring out things from scratch; you both just stand neutrally, with you having decided on an end result you'd like to achieve such as the horse going in a clockwise circle. The horse, for whatever reason, makes a move to his right (clockwise); you click and reward; the horse thinks 'oh I'll do that again!' so you click and reward; he starts doing it more and you reward each time, although as he does it better you wait for a bit more each time. Eventually the horse is moving in a complete circle then getting a reward - having offered this freely of his own accord! The beauty of it is that, the less you reward, the more the animal tries to earn it, so you actually back off from rewarding and the animal knows he can only get a reward for excellent work. (this is how the train cats, chickens etc.) Obviously the animal will offer other behaviours to try to get the reward; you simply ignore these and only reward the behaviour you want to encourage.

We're training a horse to stand still without cribbing, by clicking every time he has his head still. We then just extend the time we reward him standing for.

It may well be what people consider to be clicker, anyway; it's just that there is no cue or aid involved, at this stage, it's just 'free'.
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debs
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
3218 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  10:31:19 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add debs to your friends list Send debs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Deebee, is there a book on this? Would this work with teeth grinding, Ali grinds at feed time also opens mouth, draws tongue back and moves bottom jaw side to side, the only other time he seems to do this is if if doesnt want to do something... ie go out when others are still in yard. Presume is a kind of tension/nap, but have ca;led dentist just in case...He is pretty relaxed in other ways, doesnt get up in stable when i go in...

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deebee
Silver Member


262 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  12:46:23 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add deebee to your friends list Send deebee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The book I got this from is 'Don't shoot the dog' by Karen Pryor; there's also a wonderful woman called Jenni Nellist who 'teaches' us on another forum...

I would definitely get him checked with the dentist, though, but yes it could also be tension; they can get dry mouths when the heartrate and adrenaline is up (which is evidenced by licking and chewing...) there could be underlying stress there; mine was a 'perfect angel', I could see the tension though and now that she feels safe to express herself it does come out more, but in a better way than being suppressed.

He could be a bit worried about the feed situation, maybe feeling a bit threatened that it could be 'stolen'? (also true if it has happened in the past; it gets very ingrained if they've ever had to fight for it).
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debs
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
3218 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  2:04:24 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add debs to your friends list Send debs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think the feed thing is more anticipation,when we are getting feeds ready and he is in stable, they have been fed in field a couple of times and he leaves his and sticks his head in Micas, then they eat together! Are you allowed to mention other forum? Sorry am hijacking post!

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deebee
Silver Member


262 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  2:23:53 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add deebee to your friends list Send deebee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maybe all this is relevant to post, despite it wandering a little?

I only held back a bit about the 'other one' coz I don't want to rock the boat... I assume it's ok though? it's 'naturalhorsepeople.com'; it's undergoing some changes at the moment so you might find the 'blue' site which is the new one that isn't working properly, you want the 'green' site where the forum is working properly. Let me know if you have problems finding it; is it ok to post a link?

It's a great site and friendly just like here; more general but all NH based.
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debs
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
3218 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2009 :  2:39:40 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add debs to your friends list Send debs a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Found it, thanks deebee!

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shah
Gold Member

England
1356 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2009 :  11:12:07 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shah to your friends list Send shah a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, an update. Have had a lesson and the schooling work clicked into place, he's now schooling really well in trot and canter. Done nothing to his confidence though. Instructor thought he was a lovely lad and just becaused I managed to hack there on our own, he wasn't bad at all. It wasn't a fun hack though...

Did the pleasure ride with company as was not sure how he'd react and he's absolutely fine in company. He picked up half way through and really enjoyed himself but whinnied when we crossed the finish line so obviously liked being back. BUT will he ever enjoy going out on a second loop on his own - that's the million dollar question for me at the moment...

Tried on our own a bit yesterday and he napped BIG time. So spent lots of time reversing and reversing until he'd move forwards. We then got the 'I pretend to be scared and jump around all the time' phase, and then the 'let's piaffe all the way home to the stable because I'm now in a tiff with myself' before getting back. He then worked beautifully in the school.

Horses - who'd have them

West Sussex
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faymouse
Silver Member


United Kingdom
410 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2009 :  12:47:00 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add faymouse to your friends list Send faymouse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Dessie, when I first got him would scour dreadfully when going out but always went willingly...just the coming home bit...he alwaays wanted it to be 90MPH! Previous owner said the scouring was nothing to worry about and that "he used to scour for the 1st hour " when she compeated him on LDR's three years down the line he has learnt that he can have peaceful laid back hacks with no pressure aand throughly enjoys himself, alone or with company.
I must say I have been lucky in the fact that all my Arabs have gone out alone willingly, so is my new. rising 3, TB filly. Do have a Belgian Warmblood who previous owner said he wouldn't go out alone but after kicking up a bit of a fuss the first few times is fine now. Just each one is different and I guess a lot more folk only ride in these days which won't help.
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Bev Parker
Bronze Member


United Kingdom
148 Posts

Posted - 27 Sep 2009 :  10:00:16 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bev Parker to your friends list Send Bev Parker a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You don't say how old your boy is but I sometimes wonder whether horses that are on the nappy side have done enough long reining. I have had four pure breds, three of which I have backed myself. I always do a lot of long reining - you can start when they are two or three - and because you are driving them forward they have no choice but to go forward really - and it teaches them to be brave. One of my boys is inclined to be nappy. He hates schooling and naps towards the gate on the lunge but was always fine to hack out until last year when he suddenly started napping and if pushed, would rear. I was puzzled and checked all the usual things, teeth, back, saddle etc. It wasn't until he started getting colic like symptoms that the penny dropped and the vet eventually diagnosed stomach ulcers. A month on gastrogard followed by another mone on cimetidine and he is like a different horse! No more napping or rearing. A salutory tale for me because I was on the verge of dismissing it as naughtiness! If you are thinking of buying him and have ruled out all other possibilities it might just be worth getting him gastroscoped as part of the vetting. Apparently horses with this condition get quite uncomfortable when worked because of the stomach acid sloshing around, particularly if the horse is worked on an empty stomach. As to why he got ulcers, the only thing that I can come up with is stress from the loss of his field companion who had to be put down last year.
Good luck with your horse. Like most people on here, I really don't think this is typical behaviour for an arab - or for any other breed for that matter. I will probably get shot down in flames for this comment, but I do wonder if people tend to treat arabs differently? Do we start them differently I wonder? I know most competition horses will get sent to a professional to be backed in the traditional way, ie lunging, long reining, hacking out with a companion and then out on their own. This is the route I have followed with mine and they are all confident (spooky is not the same as a lack of confidence in my book - more self preservation!) and forward going. Interesting thread - do keep us posted.

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Emmajane
Junior Member


England
49 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2014 :  6:14:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit Emmajane's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Emmajane to your friends list Send Emmajane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mine is good to hack alone and in Co. Although he being young I've worked quite hard to get him there. He did go thriving a terribly flighty spooky phase (dangerous) then aged moving yards he settled and after ground work and leading out he stated hacking very well alone. Then about 6 months later he became too lazy and backwards. I did lots of research about how to get horse more responsive or quicker off your leg. Basically never use too much at all ever!! If he ignores leg then sharp hard tap hard enough to make him shoot goats. Then re ask quietly he will most likely respond quicker so then load of praise. Each time they're slow to react or respond a sharp instant smack. Now u only have to click and he'soff. He's now a forward responsive pleasure to ride out.


You only live once.
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Emmajane
Junior Member


England
49 Posts

Posted - 17 Jun 2014 :  7:18:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Emmajane's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Emmajane to your friends list Send Emmajane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aaargh typos everywhere as on my phone. enough to make them shoot forwards not goats ha ha sorry

You only live once.
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