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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  1:16:51 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Mike

The "proof" of Egberts statement lies in effect by contrasting what was achieved in the UK with the "early" "egyptian" imports such as Saab, Kais I, The Shah, Melchior, Marawan, Fakhr El Kheil etc, compared to to the later imports made after those with an interest in such bloodlines had fallen under the spell of the Pyramid Society. Those early horses used with care by skillfull breeders helped give us the likes of Maliek El Kheil, Zircon Nazeer and many others. The later horses, constrained by a dogma designed to promote the stallions of a handfull of breeders have by and large been unable to make a similar contribution. In breeding if one cannot keep an open mind one is in effect lost!

Mike


Mike, I could marry you - we think so much along the same lines !

It should perhaps be pointed out that Annette Hedley chose The Shah BECAUSE of his Crabbet lines, as she could see he would provide an outcross that was at the same time an "incross" to British horses. And he certainly proved her sensationally correct!

Keren
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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  1:22:25 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Egbert

Keren,

Think you will find that the Sabino gene comes through Mahruss or all three as a recessive - Mahruss, Rodania and Mesaoud. Double check your horse's pedigree and you will find the three acting together-most usually on either the sire or dam's tail female line. Alone the high white is not substantial...but put the three together and it creates the effect of one dominant gene...at least visually (am not saying that is a scientific observation but a historical one).


Egbert, the sabino concept is new to many people over here, so it is most easy to explain using Mesaoud as an example, as he is so well known and has so many obvious characteristics of the pattern. Also, the sheer profusion of crosses to him can make it difficult to disentangle the precise contribution of the others.

Now Mike is moving to Ireland, ironically, it will probably be easier for me to go and visit him, hurrah!

Keren
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nikki
Platinum Member


Wales
4384 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  2:03:39 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nikki to your friends list Send nikki a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Is anyone able to look into my mares tail female line?

Still struggling to find out much info.

Her dam Hamdanieh Habiba was imported into this country in 2000.
Her strain name is listed as Hamdanieh Habiba (Ukrainka).

Hamdanieh Habiba is a pure Bahraini mare, imported from The Amiri Stud of Bahrain and bred by Sheikh Mohammed Bin Abdullah Hamood Alkhalifa.

Many Thanks Nikki

pagey
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  7:06:13 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry to be so thick - again! - I haven't heard of "sabino". What exactly does it mean?
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  8:00:54 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
May be you can find some answers here.

http://www.sahr.homestead.com/rulesregs.html

Gunni.
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  9:18:05 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
thanks, Gunni. It seems that quite a few Arabs might be at least minimum sabino, then?
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  11:53:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Nikki,

Wish I could help but am totally unfamiliar with the newer imports. Have you called the Arab Horse Society and asked what it states on the mare's original papers? With that name, 'Hamdani', suggests that she is a Hamdani Simri...would almost stake my life on it but then that is really risky. Also there is web site for the Royal stud of Bahrain... or used to be...Here is site that might be helpful:

http://www.pi-arabians.freeserve.co.uk/index.html


Edited by - Egbert on 20 Sep 2006 12:02:40 AM
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mazey
Gold Member


England
501 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2006 :  6:47:09 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mazey to your friends list Send mazey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Have been reading this thread with fascination and learnt loads. What I don't understand though is where the "nurture" side of the debate kicks in. I can see how the physical characteristics can be passed on consistently. But I don't see how qualities such as courage, versatility, gentleness, loyalty, etc can be consistently passed on when we all keep our horses in different environmental conditions, e.g.stabling, grazing, timetables, feeds, training methods. It makes sense that for hundreds of years horses kept by the Arab tribes would have been kept in similar conditions, similar environments, similar forage and so on. But looking at old photos of horses in Arabia and at Crabbet stud through to present day the phenotypes have changed considerably because of improved environmental conditions, feeds, wormers, medicines, easier living conditions. So.... is it possible to say certain strains, or particular dam lines all exhibit similar behavioural/personality traits or qualities which are passed on genetically.


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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 20 Sep 2006 :  9:24:32 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
mazey, I think that's a very intriguing question and one to which I certainly don't have an answer! I know there have been a lot of studies in people to find this out and I don't believe anyone has found a definite method to decide - there are still two "camps" - the "nature" and the "nurture" ones. Most people do believe that some personality and character traits are handed down from one generation to the next and I suppose if, say, four generations of horses exhibit the same thing, having been brought up in different circumstances, then it would be reasonable to believe that this is inherited genetically. But I don't know how it could be proved scientifically.

And it raises, for me, another interesting question - if, for example,those four generations of horses had all been bred and raised at the one place eg Crabbet Stud,then could a behavioral trait which came about originally through nurture, be somehow "fixed" and inherited genetically by subsequent horses bred and raised somewhere else?

And are those things that we believe are inherited from the mare ( in terms of personality etc) possibly handed down simply because the foal spends its' early life with her and not its' sire?

Personally, I haven't a clue
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  02:19:28 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Interesting! I have a mare who is headshy and all her foals have also been headshy. Learned or inherited? Curiously though, years ago I had two horses of the same age by the same sire. One would exit a stable at 90mph as soon as the door was opened, but needed an hours coaxing to go back in. The other needed an hours coaxing to come out, but went back in at 90mph! Their dam's were un-related, and neither ever even saw their mutual sire

Mike
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mazey
Gold Member


England
501 Posts

Posted - 21 Sep 2006 :  7:25:19 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mazey to your friends list Send mazey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mike - I bread a foal last year from a mare who does this funny head shaking thing when she is frustrated. I never thought anything of it. After the foal was weaned to my horror he started the same thing (which I've discovered is called stereotypical behaviour) and the equine behaviourists I've read say is caused by humans keeping horses in unnatural or stressful conditions (which I don't). I suppose this could be genetic but it seems more likely to be learned behaviour and the stress of weaning triggered it.

Sorry to have gone off the tail female thread a bit but I do think the nature/nurture debate is really interesting.

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alistair leslie
Gold Member

England
1036 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2006 :  1:13:27 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add alistair leslie to your friends list Send alistair leslie a Private Message  Reply with Quote


Mares do teach their kids lots.

Like humans "nurture "is by far the most influence on behavior so a hot mare will have hot offspring.
The question is--
Would nurturing care of the mare to make her more laid back break the thread?


blue moon
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 22 Sep 2006 :  4:51:28 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
When Minuette first came to me she was a very uptight reserved mare, and I used to see her chastising her babies every so often! ( I used to watch her on the Camera in the stable)
Since she has been here a long while I dont see this happen anymore, but still her children have attitude and can be a bit fiesty sometimes
My theory is that Minuette has always been the Alfa mare, the matriach of the herd, she is respected by all the other horses, and I think in the wild, her sons would have had the best chances to become stallions, ( as other horses would respect them because of her, and her daughters would command respect also) its a case of pecking order! thats what I see in our herd.
Chances are this may be some sort of inherited trait passed down from mother to daughter and son, I dont know, or it could be in the genes,say via the Mitrocondrial (sp) DNA ? mother to daughter? what say you?


www.dreamfield-arabians.com

Edited by - LYNDILOU on 22 Sep 2006 7:34:27 PM
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mazey
Gold Member


England
501 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  10:55:53 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mazey to your friends list Send mazey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Linda - in humans there are theorists who say children areborn with inbuilt personality traits - so you get babies described as "easy" or "fractious" or "difficult" and they seem to have particular qualities from day one. If this follows to horses, and there is no reason why it shouldn't, as we all know they have personalities, then some of the personality traits must be inherited. I think that they are predisposed to then behaving and reacting in particular ways but the conditions they are kept in could then enhance or restrict those traits. I guess this is then how the strains became associated with particular traits that were fixed over generations, but if you change the external influences (nurture) then you will affect the inherent personality traits (nature).

This has just got me thinking about horses personalities but I will start another thread as I don't want to hijack this one.

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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  11:21:55 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well it makes you think, I have three children, all are different yet they have had the same upbringing, nutureing, but I sometimes think who's children are there really? someone must have swopped them while I was sleeping! none really resemble me in looks or temperament.( they think thats a blessing of course)


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Fee
Platinum Member


2601 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  11:23:36 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fee to your friends list Send Fee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mazey I completely agree with all you have said. When I studied child psychology (not to any great depth) and particularly the great nature/nurture debate. I did conclude in my essay roughly what you have said.

Yes, why can't this be the case for animals too I have a dog, she is very nervous and to anyone looking in she might look like she has been abused in her past such is her nervousness and lack of confidence. I know she hasn't as I rescued her as a pup (unwanted litter). She has never been hit or shouted at and for the first 2/3 years of her life she suffered from separation anxiety

It too has often had me thinking, is her nervousness genetic or partly/wholly due to perhaps what abuse her mum got in pregnancy and while nursing? I don't know. Personally, I think she is so presupposed to nervousness in her personality that nomatter the environment she would display this to varying degrees. I absolutely dread to think what she would have been like in a different home

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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 24 Sep 2006 :  11:31:31 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mazey,

Regarding the head shaking/neck wringing thing, I have two who do it and I'm certain that it is an inherited trait. The grandsire of one being a full brother of the grand-dam of the other. These two are the only ones with this particular bit of breeding in their genetic makeup and are the only two with this particular "habit"

I don't think that the behaviorists really understand arabs at all. Mainly it must be said through a lack of close-up personal experience. They simply spend most if not all of their time studying "normal, sane and sensible" horses Around 18 months ago we had a young lady visit as part of the data-gathering exercise for her thesis on how stallion management affected their (stallions) behavior. As we talked she pointed out that she had never before seen an arabian in the flesh before. The procedure involved watching how a stallion behaved in his stable, how he behaved when turned loose and how he reacted to the introduction of a "strange" object and then completing a questionair. Anyway after she had been watching Farooq in his stable for a while, I walked him to the menage and turned him loose and then we stood by the fence chatting. Farooq had a roll and then strolled across to the fence whereupon the young lady started scratching his back. After about 10 minutes of chatting & back scratching I pointed out that I had a couple of mares to turn out in the field opposite, which I then did. Once I had turned out the 2nd mare, Farooq (surprise, surprise) wasn't interested in having his back scratched any longer! He trotted along the fence to the far end of the menage and then galloped back arriving at the double gates in a cloud of flying sand, spun around and galloped back to the far end, and having "loosened up" spun around again and came back flat out, screaming his head off, before "hitting the brakes" just in time to stop with his chest against the gates amidst a sandstorm and a nice loud snort. Our visitor was visibly shaken (ashen faced) and was very concerned about both our safety (stood just a foot from the gates) and also that Farooq was going to hurt himself or come flying through or over the gates or fence. I tried to explain that he was just having a bit of fun and neither he nor we were in any danger, but I'm not sure that she was totally convinced.

Mike
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jaj
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4324 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  12:00:39 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaj to your friends list Send jaj a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sounds a bit like my favourite party trick, one which I also love to carry out in front of unsuspecting visitors. I send Kurai off up the menage and after a couple of warm up laps, she will hurtle towards me at full pelt and then stop dead in a cloud of dust about an inch from me, snort like a mad elephant, turn tail and charge off again. The bit I love the most after the shaken observers have been convinced that i've not been trampled to death, is that she then follows me quiet as a lamb back onto the yard and proceeds to go to sleep. Gets 'em every time!

p.s I have twin boys and they are as different as chalk and cheese and this was quite apparent from a very early age

Jen




Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma)
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mazey
Gold Member


England
501 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  7:15:02 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mazey to your friends list Send mazey a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mike - are the two horses you mentioned in any way related to Orayan. The mare who does the head shaking (my yearlings mother)is by Orayan - just a thought as I know you breed egyptian horses and if it is an inherited trait it would be interesting to find out if any other related horses do it. I know there was a thread on here a while ago about horses who head shake. Perhaps I should start another thread and see if any horses have related ancestors. I still think it is more likely to be learned behaviour though.

Jej - are your twins identical or not?

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jaj
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4324 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  7:43:41 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaj to your friends list Send jaj a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hello Mazey,

No my twins are not identical . I find twins in general a fascinating example of nature versus nuture as you are studying them at an identical time and setting. Given this and the fact that in my own personal experience they are so totally different, I think IMHO that probably 50% of behavioural traits are hereditory.

Jen




Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma)
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  7:50:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
With a degree of caution (caution only because it IS easier to compare our Arabians simply because they are more human than horse-like)-stay away from comparing humans to our horses. Why? Because unless the royal family, we are not as inbred....If one offspring is different from the other (unless identical twins and not fraternal)..it is simply a different set of genes expressing. As Mike has noted, the equine behaviorists don't really know Arabians. The behaviorists would have to CHANGE EVERYTHING if they used Arabians as their base model and few horses of other breeds would be able to live up to these critters. Moreover, they have little experience with animals so intelligent nor that know how to train humans so effectively.

When we look at an animal's pedigree we should have something of an ideal in mind...and it is the variation from the ideal that tells us the strength of the genes of those particular sets of bloodlines. For example we have come to know that Azrek very consistently conferred to many generations if not to all generations-tremendous action. Through certain lines, like his son Ahmar, it was a very very dominant gene and continued to be dominant through his grandson, *Berk. And it may have travelled 'alone' in that it didn't seem to carry a color factor or other apparent traits with it (or maybe it did, and I've just not noticed). Conversely, Irex was known to confer great beauty for generations as well but the
chestnut coloring seems to travel with the beauty gene.
This is where it is so critical to study the lines from the fifth generation forward and know as closely as possible how each individual coming forward expressed the genes.

Another thing...in terms of nurture...live wires can be retrained to respond docily/calmly. I purchased a gorgeous gelding for a killer price who was a total and complete basket case every time he saw something new. He'd spin around and try to take off. One day I started to carry grain with me-cause he loved sweet feed. When we found an object that scared him, I'd make him take one step toward it and instantly reward him when he did with a handful of grain and lots of praise. Pretty soon he would charge a smoke belching Mercedes diesel if he thought he'd get some molasses rolled in oats! Then I started making him work harder for it and finally just loud praise seemed to work as well as the sweet feed and after quite a time, he was as reliable as any horse could be.

By the way, the same sorts of techniques can work on nervous dogs....With mine who was afraid of thunder and lightning...I'd start playing ball with her when the weather was at it's noisiest as it was the one thing she loved to do above all other things...Pretty soon she'd actually sleep through storms. It is a matter of knowing how genes express and then knowing how to tap into the response to achieve the desired one.


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Fee
Platinum Member


2601 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  8:34:18 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fee to your friends list Send Fee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Great idea Egbert, I really must try that with my nervous dog. Thunder storms are awful but worst of all is bonfire night here in UK. They start weeks before the date and weeks after with fireworks. It's a nightmare! My dog shakes so much and I'm sure one year her heart is going to give out such is her anxiety. She tries to climb into kitchen cupboards and get under the wardrobe which is only inches off the ground!

I absolutely hate the forthcoming firework frenzy but will try to play ball with her cause she loves that Last year I played music very loud, it was reasonably successful.

Sorry, went a bit off topic there...nice to hear to back Egbert, thought you had deserted us!

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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  8:48:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Fee! No no...just enjoying 4 blissful days in Santa Barbara...perfect, sunny, warm weather....suite right next to the ocean, so the only sounds heard were those of waves breaking against the rocks below...

Your idea of playing loud music is excellent....though as she gets into the game of fetch, you slowly turn it down and praise her profusely for concentrating on the game...You would laugh if you knew what my clue was....after my lecture on not comparing to humans... I was in a supermarket 30 years or so ago and this woman had 4 young children with her and every once in a while the otherwise well-behaved children would start to be a tad fractious. The instant that happened, she would ask them to go find something for her in the next aisle. When we were standing in line I remarked about how incredibly quiet they were as a group and asked how she did it...and she confirmed it was via a quick DISTRACTION and a lot of praise for finding the object or whatever so quickly...

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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  9:48:02 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sorry to change the lay of the thread but I asked a little while back if anyone had any info on Aryaah El Sarh by Paradazy ex Sharqui. I would love to find a piccie of her or any of her get also Daroud; a piccie of him would be fab...............Anyone?
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 25 Sep 2006 :  10:58:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hey Georgia,

Wasn't paying attention to sex so addressed Aryaah El Sarh as 'he' in this response to your original inquiry, so trying again with appropriate changes:

"Georgia, Very old, very Kuhailan, Polish sire line to Ilderim and the dam line is as solidly Kuhailan via Rijma... Double Rodania, meaning both sire and dam traced back in tail female to Rodania. So she was a tough old boot, could go anywhere, reliable and probably full of herself and a pain if too intelligent. Probably a very handsome mare, but would be surprised if she were real pretty, an attractive mare would be my guess and a very powerful ride." She had 5 foals, 4 daughters and a son by Daroud with one daughter, Daughter of the Winds by Dorial, for her owner, Mr. A.L. Giles. Interestingly, all the offspring have carried on breeding! Good luck in finding pictures...

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