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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 16 Sep 2006 :  10:34:50 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Vygoda - errr.........."analyse them phenotypically" - whassat mean??? I've looked up the dictionary and am none the wiser (that wouldn't be hard LOL)- do you mean simply what you see when you look at a horse? Subjectively? Or am I on the wrong track here?
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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2006 :  06:44:12 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kofi,

The phenotype is what you can see from the outside of the horse .

What I tend to do if there is a horse I would like to buy or a stallion I would like to use, is do the pedigree work first and then take a good look at the horse itself, and if possible, their parents , grandparents, etc (even from photographs) and try to work out why the one in front of me looks or behaves or maybe doesn't as i would expect it to from the pedigree. Obviously the more you know the better which is why Egbert's postings are so useful.

But ....... gut feeling works too. One can take one look at a horse, go 'wow I'm in love', and everything else including common sense goes out the window .
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2006 :  09:12:03 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So if someone refers to "phenotype", that would mean the same as "conformation"? The reason I think this area is interesting is that I have difficulty with analysing it. The objective part I think you can learn if you don't already have a background in horses.I went to a 10 week class (4 hours per week) at our local agricultural college to learn about conformation and selecting a horse for various purposes and, unless two horses were standing side by side for comparison,found it quite hard to say "oh, that one has straight hocks" or whatever.Although I was a lot better at it at the end of the course.But at least most people are in agreement as to what constitutes, eg, upright pasterns.

The subjective side is harder to pin down. I think it might have to do with the human brain finding beauty in symmetry?
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2006 :  2:10:43 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think a horse has to be almost symmetric, as unevenness can lead to unsoundness, after saying that nothing is perfectly symmetricly even, ( I have one foot bigger than the other!) facial features on us humans are rearly symmetric, and legs, body, arms can vary on people, A horse is designed to run, escape preditor's, if he cant he will be eaten ( well he dosen't know there are no lions down the street does he!)
We need to choose the horse that comes as near to our idea of perfection as we can, and as I was once told by a very respected Arabian person," if it ain't in the pedigree it wont come out" . so look to the pedigree and then judge the horse standing before you, if he is a good representation of his ancestors, chances are he will pass on their much prized genes.


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2006 :  3:58:15 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Kofi,

Yes, you got it in one , phenotype is about conformation but I would also include in the word style, quality, and way of going.

The AHS runs Preliminary Judging Courses which are very useful so if there is one held near you, do go. Great to hear that you went on a course but don't worry, some faults are very difficult to pick out (especially leg ones) as I know very well to my cost.

Beauty IS in the eye of the beholder so very subjective but if we all liked the same horse, it would be a dull world.
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 17 Sep 2006 :  11:05:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Georgia UK wrote:"Thankyou Egbert, that describes my filly very well Morodai is the sire line and Rodania the tail female (hope I've got that correct?)"

Oops, Georgia...Are you saying that the sire is a Kuhailan Moradi? Sire line is ALWAYS a stallion. In other words, the stallion Indian Magic had an Ibrahim or Skowronek sire line BUT if saying Ibrahim,his dam line was believed to be a Seglawi so you would call him a Seglawi Stallion. Skowronek's dam Jaskoulka was a Kuhailan Ajuz...so the sire Line would be Skowronek, a Kuhailan Ajuz.

To clarify of who is designated the sire line:

Some authors, in identifying the sire line, will cite the stallion imported into the country...ergo, Skowronek was the imported stallion to the UK thus the sire line would be cited as Skowronek in the UK and Ibrahim who was imported from the desert, in Poland.
Actually citing either is probably correct. Certainly Gladys Brown Edwards said it was the taproot sire...ergo Ibrahim.

Kofi and Vygoda, Here is the American Heritage Medical Dictionary's addition to the equation:

Phenotype-
The observable physical or biochemical characteristics of an organism, as determined by both genetic makeup and environmental influences.

In other words, what you see is what you get!






Edited by - Egbert on 17 Sep 2006 11:11:50 PM
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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  07:31:38 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert,

I think I know where I've gone wrong

my filly's sire's Tail Female line is Sahara who I read; "Sahara was a gray Kohejlan Moradi aquired from the desert by Count Juliusz Dzieduszycki & imported to Jarczowce in 1845" The Tail Male line of her sire is Koheilan II Adjuze (Ajuz)

Her dam is Tail female Rodania and Tail Male Barq. I think this is correct

I wonder if I could pick your brains further re Aryaah El
Sarh by Paradazy ex Sharqui, any information would be greatly appreciated
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  08:28:43 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
next silly question - what's the significance of the "tail female line"? Out of all of a horse's forebears? Is it considered more important than the "tail male line" (if there is considered to be such a thing?
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  12:04:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Georgia, Very old, very Kuhailan, Polish sire line to Ilderim and the dam line is as solidly Kuhailan via Rijma... Double Rodania, meaning both sire and dam traced back in tail female to Rodania. So he was a tough old boot, could go anywhere, reliable and probably full of himself and a pain if too intelligent. Probably very masculine as well as attractive would be my guess.

Kofi, not a silly question but in the context of the Arabian horse critical. Imagine breeding pretty much the same dam line, year after year for 5000 years and if successful the mares from that line were not easily captured? Can you imagine the breeding strength and the tight gene pool...after 5000 or so years? Remember the Bedu didn't have the privilege of trading off their horses and there were not a lot of sires available so the Bedu would breed from within and every once in awhile a stallion would be seen and utilized from outside on the most treasured mares. Perhaps he was swift, totally unrelated and very nice to look at, at the same time complimenting the mares he was bred to. Next, from a scientific standpoint, the mtDNA is only found on the dam line (tho' think they have found something akin transferred onto the sire line in rare instances...can't remember what the controversy was about...might have been a contaminated petri dish...)and acts to mark the gene for each generation. Breeders speculate starting with the Bedu there is a good deal of which we have little knowledge, that travels and works together genetically found and triggered on the dam line. Remember Gazder: Size and shape come from the stallion, ALL else from the mare.
standpoint
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  2:36:18 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Aha! That's why! Scientific stuff as well. My brain is certainly being well-exercised with this thread. Thank you, Egbert.

I have heard that the chestnut/white legs colouring comes via Mesaoud and also that the "small" ones come via one of the tail female lines - so that sounds like two bits of rubbish,perhaps?
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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  3:50:34 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Egbert

Georgia, Very old, very Kuhailan, Polish sire line to Ilderim and the dam line is as solidly Kuhailan via Rijma... Double Rodania, meaning both sire and dam traced back in tail female to Rodania. So he was a tough old boot, could go anywhere, reliable and probably full of himself and a pain if too intelligent. Probably very masculine as well as attractive would be my guess.


Marvelous Another thing I've just discovered is 3 of my girls have the same Tail Male line. Is this as common as having the same Tail Female line or does it run in groups ie; English/GSB, Egyptian, Poish, Russian etc. Not sure I've explained myself very well
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  7:59:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kofi, My impression is that to have a goodly amount of high white you have three horses, 2 stallions and a mare, acting in concert within the pedigree-whether Polish, Russian, American, British or even Spanish...these three turn up with regular consistency in the pedigrees of horse with high white: Mesaoud, Rodania and Mahruss! As I recall, El Shaklan who was born with a huge blaze and a stocking just over the knee has those three in his pedigree! (Will double check right after posting this...thankfully his acted recessively more often than not.)

Georgia, Actually having the same sire line is not all that uncommon. Over here in the states there are 4 sire lines that actually dominate and it seems to be the same with all the horse breeding countries: lots of excellent dam lines and a much smaller number of actual sire lines. With 3 of your mares tracing to Ilderim on the sire line, suggests that he transmits something that really appeals to you. Can you pinpoint it?

Edited by - Egbert on 19 Sep 2006 12:32:24 AM
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Taylor
Gold Member

England
1432 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  8:13:29 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Taylor to your friends list Send Taylor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Taylor



Have been doing a bit more research and have come across something that has left me a little confused. Is it right in saying the spelling of the strain changes depending on male or female?

So becasue Frazer is male he is Kuhaylan'Ajuz Rodan but if he was female he would be described as Kuhaylah Ajuz Rodaniyah ?

That wasnt where I got confused though I was reading about Serenity Sonbolah and she is described as Straignt Egyptian and is also Kuhaylah Ajuz Rodaniyah with her tail female going through Rose of Sharon the same as Frazer. I notice alot of the horses in her pedigree were bred at Crabbet park so does this mean she is not straight egyptian and is crabbet aswell or does it mean Frazer contains egyptian lines?? Sorry if this sounds really dumb


Was my question so silly noone wanted to answer

Edited by - Taylor on 18 Sep 2006 8:16:30 PM
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  8:43:02 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taylor,
Think I did answer it somewhere....I tend to disregard the male/female distinctions-much as I would translating Spanish/French/Italian to English. We don't do that in discussing humans, why would we in discussing horses? You do have purists who will demand the correct appelation but I see it as an affectation. We are not Arabic speakers, very few people understand strains and far fewer still visit the tribes where it MIGHT matter. (If I understood a conversation with Roger Upton decades ago, he said that today the Bedu could care less and rarely worry about strains. My argument is that so many Bedu were killed back at the turn of the last century fighting alongside Lawrence, that those who did care were killed off...simply because the strains do seem to tell a story...)NO question is silly. And at some point in time, making the male/female distinction may be proven to be worthwhile. I just don't see it yet.

Kofi,

Did double check El Shaklan's pedigree. As you know his tail female traced to the Duke du Veragua imports. That being the case, have found that the Duke imported horses, like the Nasik, who traces to Mahruss, grandson Razada by Shahzada out of Ranya by Nasik...along with Jalila, Shelifa, Reyna and Namira. Unfortunately though we know that all the Veragua horses left alive at the end of the Spanish Civil War were pure Crabbet (per interviews with family members the Marquesa de Laula and her daughter, Christina), we don't know precisely who they are-hopefully will once DNA testing becomes more exacting. However it is very safe to assume that all three, Rodania, Mesaoud and Mahruss can be found in Shaklan's tail female of Verana. Certainly Mesaoud and Rodania are found in abundance on his sire's side!

Edited by - Egbert on 18 Sep 2006 8:49:04 PM
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Taylor
Gold Member

England
1432 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  8:54:54 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Taylor to your friends list Send Taylor a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My apologies Egbert I should read things more carefully in future
Thankyou for answering my question again though you are most kind.

Have found this link http://www.agecroft.arabianhorse.com/article.htm really interesting reading.
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  9:04:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Taylor,

It IS MUST READING! Thank you for posting it. Betty Finke is one of the world's greatest observers, experts, open minded writers about the Arabian horse that exists today. There are just not enough accolades for this extraordinary writer/editor. She is a huge supporter of British bred Arabians, too. She knows the importance of the lines emanating out of the UK. Her value to all of us who love the Arabian horse is simply immeasurable.
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Treasure
Silver Member

England
442 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  9:11:52 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Treasure to your friends list Send Treasure a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I hadn't heard the bit from Gadzder before - interesting as my mare, Khazana, is absolutely a chip off her lovely sire, Diamond Star to look at but has much more of her dam's personality, Raqisa.

My two half brother geldings would be very similar in type having the same sire, Fanto, but very different personalities and levels of intelligence. Fantastic Silver is sweet but not absolutely the brightest, but his brother, Feiranto, my erstwhile best friend, was highly intelligent and so vocal, talking to me all the time! His dam, El Kheir was very clever, didn't know Tas's dam, Xarifa, so can't comment on her.

My daughter also has a Morgan mare who is just like her Dad to look at, but with the character of her Mum - works every time!!

Carolyn

Johaara Arabians
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  9:36:32 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Treasure!

Welcome to the thread! You can find the quote at the beginning of the Gazder book (1993-first hardback edition)in 'How to use this Book', page xix, second paragraph. In it he discusses the importance of the mares...only the most celebrated (translated in theory, if the rider fell in battle she would guard him unless the enemy tried to come after her, then she would strike, bite and kick and then outrun the enemy's horse coming back to her fallen owner. Only a family member could catch her...as a rule only unless collapsed and then she might be captured successfully)mares were used from which to breed.

Your Morgan carries a goodly amount of Arabian blood of the Davenport importation which probably accounts for her following the rule as well. As a matter of fact that Davenport blood is much closer to the desert in time and the mares from it were all celebrated, particularly *Wadduda, *Urfah, *Werdi and *Haffia.
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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  9:59:48 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by kofihorse

Aha! That's why! Scientific stuff as well. My brain is certainly being well-exercised with this thread. Thank you, Egbert.

I have heard that the chestnut/white legs colouring comes via Mesaoud and also that the "small" ones come via one of the tail female lines - so that sounds like two bits of rubbish,perhaps?


No, that's not rubbish at all. Mesaoud is the source of the sabino gene in our modern gene pool - and sabino expresses itself most strongly on chestnut in Arabs for some reason that we don't understand yet.

The 'small ones' are the bays descended from Dajania.

What this means is that certain 'gene packages' are prepotent - they pass down the generation intact as a "bundle" of characteristics. Why, we don't yet know for sure.

Keren
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Treasure
Silver Member

England
442 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  10:17:30 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Treasure to your friends list Send Treasure a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert - that would account for the fact that on the only 2 occasions I came off my mare, she stood and waited by me (I wasn't injured) but the one time I came off Tas, he b*****ed off across the fields (and I was seriously injured!). Faithful mares, I love them! She also won't allow herself to be caught by anyone who she doesn't like or is at all roughly behaved. That also fits your description.

I don't know a great deal about Morgan history so I wasn't aware of the connections you mention. I do know they breed absolutely true to type though, not bad for hybrids!

Carolyn

Johaara Arabians
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 18 Sep 2006 :  11:51:00 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keren, I am glued to the computer! My Kofi (Alpha Laval) was a 14,1 liver chestnut with three whites and a blaze.Also plenty of black in his mane and tail. As far as I can tell, he had only one line (?)to Dajania, her great great grandson, Faris, (chestnut with WS presumably from Mesaoud and Mahruss who are in there a couple of times) sired Rissalix, who appears at least four times in Kofi's pedigree. The bay colour from Dajania only continued to her daughter and grandaughter in Kofi's pedigree and is not seen again until the introduction of Gastronomia and Grojec.

How sad am I to be spending all this time figuring out why my lovely boy had his phenotype and/or genotype - see, I'm learning the lingo too

Haven't finished yet, though - going to figure out some things about Khan next
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  12:27:21 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keren,

Think you will find that the Sabino gene comes through Mahruss or all three as a recessive - Mahruss, Rodania and Mesaoud. Double check your horse's pedigree and you will find the three acting together-most usually on either the sire or dam's tail female line. Alone the high white is not substantial...but put the three together and it creates the effect of one dominant gene...at least visually (am not saying that is a scientific observation but a historical one).

Originally posted by Taylor:"......That wasnt where I got confused though I was reading about Serenity Sonbolah and she is described as Straignt Egyptian and is also Kuhaylah Ajuz Rodaniyah with her tail female going through Rose of Sharon the same as Frazer. I notice alot of the horses in her pedigree were bred at Crabbet park so does this mean she is not straight egyptian and is crabbet aswell or does it mean Frazer contains egyptian lines?? Sorry if this sounds really dumb"

Some of sE breeders for reason that are to me unfathomable (and I hope I am not sounding like a pompous a**) go through all the machinations in the world to not recognize Crabbet/Shaykh Obeyd/Blunt breeding...like 'mum' is the word. Then like you someone starts doing homework and they notice all that Crabbet blood in the pedigree. Well here is the deal, Mike went into it earlier but I'll repeat it...as a result of African horse sickness decimating a goodly number of purebred breeding stock in Egypt, the Royal Agricultural Society sent over Dr. A.E. Branch acting for the society and he came over to the UK and purchased 20+ head of horses from Crabbet. He was incredibly rude to Lady W and so she hid both Nasik and Skowronek from him. After the purchase was signed and sealed, she trotted out both horses and Branch was furious that she had not included those two in the sale saying he would have gladly taken them both! So yes, a horse can be 'straight' Egyptian but it still has a load of Crabbet and would look a good deal different but for Crabbet. But to give credit where credit is due, a long term breeding program is the product of the breeder and what the breeder feels constitutes a great horse. But 3 decades ago I became so disillusioned by the sE program and our Pyramid Society's butting in and creating a definition about a horse that was bred in Egypt and putting up pedigrees that didn't reflect Crabbet's contribution that I started taking a lot closer look at the UK and Crabbet.

All in all when considering the smaller size of the British breeding programs, the care that went into them and still does, the genuine concern Lady W had for all the horses she sold from Crabbet especially to breeders in the UK basis some of the correspondence I've seen-to my mind the greatest group of breeders in the world come straight from the UK. It is the UK programs that are most deserving of recognition and think that a resurgence of appreciation for British breds is just around the corner.



Edited by - Egbert on 19 Sep 2006 01:00:11 AM
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  01:40:20 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The "proof" of Egberts statement lies in effect by contrasting what was achieved in the UK with the "early" "egyptian" imports such as Saab, Kais I, The Shah, Melchior, Marawan, Fakhr El Kheil etc, compared to to the later imports made after those with an interest in such bloodlines had fallen under the spell of the Pyramid Society. Those early horses used with care by skillfull breeders helped give us the likes of Maliek El Kheil, Zircon Nazeer and many others. The later horses, constrained by a dogma designed to promote the stallions of a handfull of breeders have by and large been unable to make a similar contribution. In breeding if one cannot keep an open mind one is in effect lost!

Mike
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  11:33:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Amen! And if I might point out, Mike, you are the only sE breeder, whom I'm aware of, that seems to have a grasp on what is critical to the breeding and are doing some of the most exciting crosses within straight Egyptiandom! The 'problem' as Mike has demonstrated is that with one exception-and that blood has from what I am told serious conformational issues-straight Egyptian breeding has become limited in scope and stodgy. Mike has taken and innovative, out of the box approach and a whole new direction and it is very very exciting. Just hope the move isn't going to interfere too much with all that you are accomplishing!
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Treasure
Silver Member

England
442 Posts

Posted - 19 Sep 2006 :  11:36:22 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Treasure to your friends list Send Treasure a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I've always been really interested in the history of our breed and this thread has made me look at it all again and found that my mare and my new filly to be, Malawi, both have the same dam and sire tail female lines - both dams to Nuhra and both sires to Selma. I know the pool was quite small then but what a coincidence (well to me anyway!). Their immediate pedigrees are quite different, Kkazana is by Diamond Star (Crabbet) out of Raqisa (lots of Courthouse) and Malawi is Aazari out of Monsoon - double El Shaklan and double Carmargue - Wow!!

My boy is triple Dajania and 1 line back to Rodania - quite different lines.

Carolyn

Johaara Arabians
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