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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  10:10:26 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by kofihorse

Just from looking at old pictures,I think I can see what you mean about Skowronek's head - it's more "dishy" and has a smaller muzzle - he also looks to have slightly more almond shaped eyes. I would think that's what most people would imagine when they think of as an "Arab" face? Beautiful!

Mike - lovely pic of Maidan, his determination is very apparent!

Now wondering if the smaller muzzle has had any adverse effects on teeth/chewing at all? Both of mine use/d a 4 1/2" bit but they are small horses. I know that my vet believes that, if an Arab needs invasive mouth/dental work, it must be done by a vet as they are more difficult to work on. Sorry, off at a tangent here but just wondering.




Many Arabs have trouble carrying a bit simply because there isn't room in their mouth for both their tongue and a bit at the same time. As a result, you get tongue lolling and similar 'problems'. Mostpeople try to rectify the situation by using wider bits or strapping the mouth shut with various types of drop nosebands, both of which considerably increase the poor horse's discomfort. The answer is to go the opposite way with narrower mouthpieces (though not excessively so) or even to accept that Arabs were not bred to carry a bit, and use an gentle type of hackamore instead.

Keren
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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  10:19:27 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Egbert

Think you have both hit on it. The Crabbet dam lines are like money in the bank...they are very consistent. Actually the old Crabbet mares were simply stunning producers which I credit to Lady Anne's learning Arabic and double and triple checking the bonafides of each horse. The desert line mares-Rodania, Dajania, Basilisk were phenomenal. Even the more homly Queen of Sheba's rather plain looking head...was elegant on her babies! What we have to remember is, as with humans, is that the quality of feeds available both in the desert and Egypt...were really awful and when the horses arrrived in the West/UK, suddenly they had a quality of feed they had never enjoyed before and I think that is why there is such a dramatic change in the photos of those early imports and their later, Crabbet born babies.


Egbert, it's so lovely to hear someone speak up in favour of the Basilisks! Of course, they are one of the top dam lines in the US, and I know first hand what they are capable of, both under saddle and as producers here in the UK.

Another point that is often forgotten about the early Crabbet imports is that photography was relatively crude at the time: we have all had problems getting horses to stand still long enough even for our modern lightweight cameras - imagine the difficulty take photos using GLASS PLATE negatives which needed an exposure time of several seconds to capture an image! That is what Lady Anne was doing, and in many of the existing photos you can see where horses have moved. The most commonly reproduced photo of Basilisk is an excellent example - if you look at a clear copy carefully you can see a double exposure where she moved her head, making her look plainer than she obviously was from Lady Anne's accounts. Also, even at Crabbet, horses still suffered from worms and what we now consider relatively minor problems like strangles could had a devastating effect.

Keren
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  11:12:58 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Kofihorse, I have never had any dental problems with horses with small muzzles and consequently narrow jaws (at least at the bars of the mouth) Maidan takes a 4" bit and isn't a tiny delicate horse, whilst I am still looking for one small enough to be comfortable for Azim

Egbert, the Moniet look isn't bad considering that he has only one line to Moniet El Nefous through his sire's dam, appropriately enough named Moniet herself.

Moniet (Kaisoon X Moneera(Alaa El Din X Mouna))

And a few foal pics




What I would really like to get, which I have so far failed to achieve is the chestnut foal colour in combination with the Bint Helwa dam line and so had planned to use Maidan on this mare this year, but he put a spanner in the works!


The foal (should it eventually arrive) might be interesting

Mike
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  11:52:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh my gosh, AWESOME babies! Think the last mare will be a wonderful wife if her head reflects the rest of her-especially if he transmits his huge eye as he seems to have done to the foals shown. You must be over the moon! His sire's dam looks like a showstopper. Was she ever shown?

Keren,

At the '85 Crabbet Convention at Crabbet someone brought Basilisk's tail for the exhibit. Did you ever see it? Think she may be one of the most underrated mares ever. To hold the tail was like holding the finest silk in one's hands.

Think your point about the photography at the time cannot be over-emphasized, either.

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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  12:11:08 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert,

I don't believe that Moniet was ever shown, oddly enough neither was his sire's sire Maymoon

Photo by Irena Filsinger

Even these days, a lack of a show record needn't imply a lack of quality or indeed type

Mike

PS Come to think of it Moniet + Maymoon + El Shaklan + Carmargue might be a good idea, I will have to try it one of these days

Edited by - Mike on 12 Sep 2006 12:15:28 AM
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Egbert
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USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  12:59:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Seeing that picture certainly makes my heart pound! Wowwwwweeeee! Hmmmm...have to say I love that idea of Moniet + Maymoon + El Shaklan + Carmargue....! That makes the old heart go flip flop big time! Thanks so much for sharing, Mike!
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  02:21:31 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Come to think of it, the Narissma daughter that Lyndilou has for sale could be ideal for the job, a pity that I can't afford another horse at the moment but would be willing to offer a free service to whoever does buy her Any such foal would I think be one heck of a show horse

Mike
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  07:52:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh Lord, Mike...If I were living over there....Hmmmm....anyone out there, living close to Mike, want to adopt me? Me, er and a dozen horses + and 2 dogs and 1 cat and a grumpy husband? Oops! I forgot...and a very noisy rooster!

Edited by - Egbert on 12 Sep 2006 07:54:14 AM
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  09:18:53 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks Mike I have someone coming to see her on thursday I will tell them your offer Egbert, seems you have the same as me ( except for the rooster, ) but lets face it who wants to adopt someone elses grumpy husband


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  10:23:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Ah well,,,,worth a try...That was quite an offer and the filly sounds kind of cool! The grumpy husband bares a faint resemblence to a slightly overweight Robert Redford...would that sweeten the pot? And the rooster is really cute!

PS
Is there a picture of the potential bride anywhere?

Edited by - Egbert on 12 Sep 2006 10:24:46 AM
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  10:33:27 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Look in the for sales page here and go to mares, mares name is Niquitta oh ,ok I will adopt your Robert Redford look alike and rooster too not tired yet??


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  10:49:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Pooped, actually. Where is the 'For Sale' page...? Sorry Lynda...I am missing it tonight/morning...It is just that Mike has me addled with that gorgeous picture up there. And of course he is quite right. Quality is quality-shown or not. At least in the UK breeders realize that.
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  10:51:54 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
go to the top of the page, main site, up comes the list, go to sales and then to mares for sale, or just go to bed and look tomorrow, night, night


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  1:25:43 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Egbert

Pooped, actually. Where is the 'For Sale' page...? Sorry Lynda...I am missing it tonight/morning...It is just that Mike has me addled with that gorgeous picture up there. And of course he is quite right. Quality is quality-shown or not. At least in the UK breeders realize that.


Well, *some* of us, anyway - sadly we've seen the same rise of the Arab owner over the *breeder* here that you have in the US.

Mike, I wish i could come up and see your boy in the flesh - I'm sure he'd make me enjoy looking at SEs again. BTW, the email link on your website doesn't appear to work - every time I've tried it, I just get a mail failure notice.

Egbert, I wish I HAD been able to get to the CC in '84 - to hold Basilisk's tail would have really been something for me - I have something of a mission to make people realise how important this line is (we had a brief conversation at Malvern in the sponsor's tent - do you remember?). Sadly, due to the fact that it was lost from Crabbet, it is of extreme rarity: the numbers here in the UK are only in double figures, and low double figures at that. The sole existing line comes down from Musgrave Clark's Belka, and the ability to perform hasn't been lost: they are tough, intelligent good-looking Arabs but sadly NOT FASHIONABLE.

Keren
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  7:06:09 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keren, what does it mean when you say that Basilisk's line has been mainly "lost"? Do you mean tail female line? Or not many descendants with Basilisk in their pedigrees at all?
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  7:53:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Keren,

Think I do remember! We do have a good deal more of the Basilisks over here as I run into it fairly frequently and am always struck by the quality of the individual and usually, great beauty. In the UK, you have had two National Champion stallions that carry Basilisk as their tail female-Bahram and Benjamin, both very lovely stallions. So often 'fashion' is cyclic. When people stop showing certain lines they do tend to be ignored. The one sure fire way is to start showing them again and winning. Basilisk is so important as she is yet another important source of Seglawi blood-Seglawi Jedran of Ibn Ed Derri, an Anezeh offshoot tribe.

Kofi, think Keren means that the blood died out and was lost to Crabbet when it came into Lady W's ownership and couldn't be incorporated back in before other blood was mixed with it...like the Bint Helwa lines that went to the US and came back. In the US we had Battla, Berk (awesome action is associated with Berk especially appearing on the dam line, and he passed it for generations), Baraza, Bahreyn, Bakmal, and Bazikh (from whom many of our most beautiful descend) come over, amongst others. I've a sneaking suspicion that it was too fine for Lady W's taste as the mares I've known from this line are tough as nails but sometimes look comparatively delicate.

Lynda, found it but couldn't find a pedigree on the All breed datasource for her or sire and dam...She looks a lovely girl!
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  8:08:42 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think that this http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/niquitta2 might just be the correct pedigree for Lynda's mare?

Mike
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saluq
Bronze Member

England
90 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  8:30:34 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add saluq to your friends list Send saluq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Keren
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saluq
Bronze Member

England
90 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  8:40:23 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add saluq to your friends list Send saluq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Keren,

Will try again - lost my post! I have 2 Basilisk female tail line arabians. Both are black, good natured, good temperament, excellent conformation with great hearts and hardy with spectacular movement!

Below photos of this year's colt CFS Astreled (by AH Saluq out of Minstrella) who is double Basilisk on the female tail line.

More info on www.courtfarmarabianstud.co.uk

Beth





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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  10:50:31 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Mike



Trust me, if you had a really hot Rodiana, you would know!!

Mike


Think this may have been a "Hot Rodania Moment"



and the flip side, "Butter Wouldn't Melt"

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MinHe
Platinum Member

England
2927 Posts

Posted - 12 Sep 2006 :  11:36:48 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add MinHe to your friends list Send MinHe a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by kofihorse

Keren, what does it mean when you say that Basilisk's line has been mainly "lost"? Do you mean tail female line? Or not many descendants with Basilisk in their pedigrees at all?


As it happens, Kofi, both are the case! Wilfrid Blunt sold a number of Basilisk's descendants to the US, where - as Egbert says - they were *very* successful, but despite Lady W's re-import of a mare of this line, it did not carry on at Crabbet. HOWEVER, thankfully, Musgrave-Clark had bought Belka from Crabbet for his Courthouse Stud, where - as well as being a major endurance winner - she was a good producer. The downside was that Musgrave-Clark did not breed his mares very often, so that the line was lost at Courthouse too, and only survived by a stroke of luck.

In some ways, Basilisk mares are their own worst enemies, as they are such bl**dy good riding animals, owners hesitate to "lose" them to produce foals. But it IS worth it - studying the few Basilisks that have been bred since Lady Anne's time, most of the colts have gone on to be top class stallion material: not something many other lines can claim.

Beth, thank you so much for posting your Basilisks! I have Latifah's daughter Lutfiya (by Silvadoris), *her* daughter Babirah il Asil by El Kabah (by Kais I EAO), and the stallion Marimbah by Marawan out of Abnoos, as well as a black colt by Marimbah out of Babirah. I would very much like to find out the whereabouts of any other Basilisks so that hopefully we can get a sort of group together, to help preserve the line. It IS a good one, and well worth keeping since it can produce toughness AND type.

(BTW, Latifah and Lahtifah are two different mares - Doosti's dam was Latifah)

Keren
Basilisk Arabians
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2006 :  12:01:12 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Keren,

I finally got around to fixing that email link on my website!

Not a Basilisk I am afraid, but by one (Mudir by Marawan out of Latifah) his dam was by Kais I

(yet another "fizzy" Rodiana)
Mike

Mike

Edited by - Mike on 13 Sep 2006 12:02:27 AM
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2006 :  04:57:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What a beauty. This is the Mudir son? Have any photos of Mudir? Thank you for the pedigree of Lynda's youngster!
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saluq
Bronze Member

England
90 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2006 :  07:02:22 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add saluq to your friends list Send saluq a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Keren
thanks for pointing out the error will fix the web pages! good idea to keep intouch with others who like the "little mare" are many black?

beth
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 13 Sep 2006 :  08:37:10 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My Kofi's pedigree was tail female to Gayza, who was by Bazleyd who was descended in the tail female line from Basilisk - just the one zig-zag!
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