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anne
Gold Member

England
877 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2006 :  2:49:21 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add anne to your friends list Send anne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Mike

You have just discribed my horse to a tee.

I confess to knowing nothing about breeding and find this facinating.

Anne


..................................................................... Photo by David Evans
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sapphire blue
Silver Member


England
440 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2006 :  3:22:31 PM  Show Profile  Click to see sapphire blue's MSN Messenger address Bookmark this reply Add sapphire blue to your friends list Send sapphire blue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Am I right that CFS Avalon's tail femail is Dafina and Satin Moth's is Kuhaylahajuz? And if that is correct does anyone know anything about Dafina? What would that tell me about my 2 lads especially for Avalon as we may look to breed from him so this would be helpful for looking at mares later. What strains are they both?

Egbert you said a brief look at my mares they were quality mares - was this the tail line mares or Avalon and Satin as they are boys (sorry it's me teaching has addled my brain!!)

Regards, Sapphire




Edited by - sapphire blue on 08 Sep 2006 3:25:19 PM
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2006 :  3:53:06 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message  Reply with Quote
In a letter send to me there was this information about Dafina.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

There was only one further addition to the Crabbet stock after Skowronek of a horse not descended from the original Blunt horses: the mare Dafina, imported from the desert in 1927 and presented to Lady Wentworth through Sir Gilbert Clayton of the Arab Bureau. Dafina bred on through just two daughters--Dafinetta, who remained in England, and Ryama, who was sold to Russia as a five year old. From Ryama descends U.S. Reserve National Champion Stallion and leading halter sire Padrons Psyche, one of the breed's leading sires of halter winners. Lady Wentworth sold Dafina in 1936, and henceforth the few additions to her program were all from stock descending from prior Crabbet breeding (such as the great motion sire Oran, the last stallion used at Crabbet who had no
lines to Skowronek).

Part of an article of Marlene Margid.

Gunni.
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2006 :  3:57:41 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message  Reply with Quote

Peter Upton s painting of Dafina.



Gunni.
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Arachnid
Platinum Member


England
1872 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2006 :  7:11:22 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Arachnid to your friends list Send Arachnid a Private Message  Reply with Quote
So, Egbert, wake up! What does 'kehailet' mean (mine's dam line goes Nuhra then kehailet al wadhnieh)


West Sussex
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 08 Sep 2006 :  8:33:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My knowledge of the Dafina (bred by the Muteyr tribe in Arabia per Gazder) lines is zip-zero-nada. The breeders with her blood, Keheilan Krush, are the Russians as there was a Crabbet mare, Ryama, of that line that went to Russia as noted and I believe the Guiness family (Lord and Lady Moyne) has a sizeable number tracing to Dafinetta by Naziri for whom she had 15 foals! From what little I've seen and known, these are lines that tend to act almost as neutrals in a pedigree-absorbing the best into the pedigree while the so-so blood tends to neutralize out of it. As for temperament, again from what very little I've seen-these are horses that want to get along and not make waves. If very intelligent they will assert themselves to a point but they don't want to rock the boat-neither the herd's nor the human's that owns them. The 'Krushs'ones we see today are reportedly for the most part, originally from Bahrain-with some apparently making it to the desert as Dafina's origins suggest, and Davenport brought in a mare from the desert, Werdi, as well. It is not a terribly successful line in the showring...You will note that even Padron Psyche, as lovely as he is and hugely successful breeding stallion, only made Res. US National Champion. It is his sons and daughters of differing dam lines but for the most part Kuhailan (haven't actually done a study, and am going on observation), that have enjoyed so much showring success.


Hi Arachnid,

There are two points to keep in mind:
1) The names are phonetically spelled, thus Kehailet, Kuhailat, Kahaila, Kuhailan...are all one and the same...
2)They all seem to mean 'purebred'

Thus your horse's dam line, "Kehailet al Wadhnieh" translates roughly - and I don't speak Arabic - as the "purebred of the Al Wadhnieh family". However, if tracing to Nuhra...think that it is a Wadna Khirsanieh which is a kehailan (purebred). The distinction is a subtle one and probably not worth noting.

Sapphire...Sorry wasn't paying attention to sex but the quality reflected in the pedigrees. That is definitely an 'oops' on my part!


This is addressed to all reading this:

FIRST and MOST IMPORTANTLY: It is how the horse visually appears and behaves IN THE FLESH that is the most important thing of all when evaluating the animal. The pedigree, sire and dam lines only act as guidelines. Rules are made to be broken and if we went by pedigree alone so many horses would have been lost to us... Padrons Psyche and Magnum Psyche broke all the rules...both having comparatively unknown dam lines that had never done particularly well in the showring, yet as individuals it is hard to imagine they could have been much better-whether in the show ring or breeding barn.

In terms of using the pedigree as a breeding tool...If you know your pedigrees really well, understand how the strains are hoped to be most effective when given the choice of varying stallions to marry to that special mare...You might want to look at how the pedigrees match up and what the dam line needs to give that extra special edge were you to show, to ride, to enjoy. (Hopefully this makes sense?!)

Edited by - Egbert on 09 Sep 2006 12:02:31 AM
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  01:00:30 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to re-iterate Egbert's last point, a great pedigree only aquires value from the quality of the horse it belongs to, it has no intrinsic value of its own A bad or poor quality horse isn't improved at all by having a "stellar pedigree", it remains exactly what you see and nothing more. The idea that an unlikely looking individual is "bound to produce something worthwhile" based entirely on pedigree alone with no co-oberation at all from the physical appearance of the horse itself is pure fantasy, no matter how good the breeding looks on paper.

In breeding as in so much else, you can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear! However, careful research and some knowledge of pedigrees, damlines and strains etc will help prevent you from making a sow's ear out of a silk purse and even help you make a very much nicer purse

Mike

MIke
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  01:52:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mike,

Beautifully said...Thank you!

Egbert
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  08:43:59 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Thanks for that, Mike! This is the sort of experienced opinion I was looking for. After losing Kofi, some people thought I was silly to start my search based on pedigree but I couldn't travel the length and breadth of the country to see every potential new friend and, at the lower end of the price range, most people don't have videos available and photos aren't always reliable. Of the final two horses I went to see, one had a very, very similar pedigree to Kofi but was completely different in shape and way of going - Khan has only some of the same lines but is the "type" I wanted.

Lots of reasons why I'll never be a breeder but I do love learning about Arabs so I can have some kind of informed opinion about what everyone else is doing - and most, importantly, WHY!!
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  1:56:06 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just to illustrate, exactly how icy calm and unflappable, even the hottest Rodiana descendant can be when it really matters

http://www.arabianlines.com/forum1/topic_new.asp?TOPIC_ID=12341

And to complete the picture his pedigree, which perfectly describes him, both physically and mentally http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/classic-maidan Not only a very heavy Rodiana influence, but also multiple crosses to several very "hot"/"difficult" horses and no calming influences to speak of. Also quite interestingly, its a pedigree of heavy Rodiana breeding without any crosses to Nureddin II as mentioned earlier by Egbert.

Mike
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  4:47:10 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Please forgive my ignorance, Mike, as I only recognise about one name in Maidan's pedigree - would he be what some people call "egyptian"?

also,the "hot" temperament - are you describing a full-on display mode with high-stepping,snorting, blowing, prancing and ignoring human requests to calm down? Or something more reckless/dangerous?
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  6:23:17 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maidan is "straight egyptian", but if you follow the lines back from say Kateefa, Malaka, Anter etc, then you will reach familiar early Crabbet names

Maidan's behavior is fuelled by adrenaline rather than testosterone, so he's playfull and exciteable rather than being agressive or nasty. For example he's easy enough to handle around mares. The differance between what one thinks of as "hot" and Maidan is akin to the differance between playing tennis(for example) recreationally at ones local club, and then finding oneself on the centre court at Wimbledon playing the world's number one. It's still essentially the same game, but played much harder, faster and at a whole differant level of skill. I think he would be rather too OTT for the showring But who know's maybe one day I will find some idiot (I mean calm super competant and confident handler) willing to undertake the task at Malvern.

Incidently Maidan is arabic for a large open public space, such as a square, park or parade ground. Seems a strange name for a horse, but the plural of "Maidan" is "Mayadin" which translates as "a battlefield"

Mike
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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  8:35:49 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My one and only book (Arabian Exodus) tells me that in 1920,Ibn Yashmak,El Borak, Rustem and Raza (among others) were sold from the Crabbet Stud to Egypt - so, here's my next question - at what stage does the line stop being referred to as "Crabbet" and start being called "Egyptian", Mike? Is it to do with the date of the General Stud Book? Or is it only horses which were actually bred at Crabbet that should be called Crabbet?

I hope you don't mind the questions.

Interesting about the "hot" behaviour - one time Kofi went into full "lost the plot" mode, we were waiting to be vetted before a ride. The vet, having watched the steam coming out of his nostrils and the birling about at the end of his lead rope etc said "oh, his heart rate will be through the roof" - it was 44, entirely average for him before a ride.
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 09 Sep 2006 :  10:20:58 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
According to the Crabbet Org, a horse that is 100% Crabbet traces in all lines to horses owned or bred by the Blunts or their daughter Lady Wentworth at either Crabbet Park (and presumably also New Buildings) or at the Blunt's Sheykh Obeyd stud in Egypt.

The last imported arabian registered in the GSB was Skowronek, so a horse that is 100% GSB traces entirely to horses imported into the UK upto and including Skowronek but excluding any later imports. Whilst there is considerable overlap between what is entirely Crabbet and that which is entirely GSB there are significant horses which are either one or the other but not both.

The Crabbet influence in Egyptian breeding derives from the horses bred at Sheikh Obeyd which remained in Egypt and also from the purchase by the RAS of around 20 stallions and two mares from Lady Wentworth, one further influence was the Skowronek son Registan who was exported to Egypt a little later. Unfortunately since he (Registan) is specifically excluded from the Pyramid Societies definition of "Straight Egyptian" his descendants have been "devalued" as horses which is I feel both a great pity and rather short-sighted!

Mike
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 10 Sep 2006 :  09:20:02 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I am glad you said that Mike I always feel the ASIL followers to be a bit short sighted sometimes


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  09:09:25 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mike,

I LOVE Maidan...pictures and the incredible courage he showed! He is one of the greats that define what an Arabian is all about!

What is so ironic, if understanding the great Egyptian breeder Dani Barbari (sp?) correctly in a conversation many years ago, the Registan related horses are shown right next to the RAS horses at the Egyptian shows! What is so bothersome is that we Americans made up a sE definition and then expected all to abide by it. Am so glad the Maxwells didn't or we'd not have had the likes of Muneera in our pedigrees...who traces to Registan!

Kofi what has to be recognized is that Crabbet has had a HUGE impact on all the major world Arabian breeding programs. The reason is that Crabbet thrived through war, pestilence and famines where other programs were nearly lost and in the end went to Crabbet to replenish. The horses were and continue to be of outstanding quality, solidly built with terrific conformation. Personally I've NEVER seen an offset cannon or club foot on a straight Crabbet. There is arguably a loss of showring type perhaps because the Crabbet breeders don't go for all the hype....but I'd put up a Silvern Princess, Silvern Idyll, Klinta Bashir, any of the Silver Sheen descendants properly conditioned and turned out and bet they would give the modern show horses a run for the ribbons. Last but not least, most straight programs whether Russian, Egyptian, Spanish, Polish or whatever...would not look as they do today BUT for Crabbet Park (under which I include Sheykh Obeyd as the same players created both)! And quite honestly after this last show over here...with an abundance of clubs and offsets...would not be in the least surprised to see a resurgent appreciation and utilization of Crabbet blood.

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Cate
Platinum Member

Scotland
1785 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  09:53:04 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cate to your friends list Send Cate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well said Egbert....I must say, IMO, I have a beautiful Crabbet/OE mare with four lines to Silver Fire and I am quite sure she would, properly conditioned and turned out, give the modern day show horses a run for their money!


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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  10:09:54 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I think it good to have a Crabbet/ old english damline, to cross with other lines that produce more type (sorry Crabbet fans) thus hopefully keeping the sturdy bodies, good boned legs but put some other qualities in, lady Wentworth herself found that adding Skowronek to her somewhat plain headed mares made a whole new look, (so its not just me that thinks that way)


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  10:55:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Think you have both hit on it. The Crabbet dam lines are like money in the bank...they are very consistent. Actually the old Crabbet mares were simply stunning producers which I credit to Lady Anne's learning Arabic and double and triple checking the bonafides of each horse. The desert line mares-Rodania, Dajania, Basilisk were phenomenal. Even the more homly Queen of Sheba's rather plain looking head...was elegant on her babies! What we have to remember is, as with humans, is that the quality of feeds available both in the desert and Egypt...were really awful and when the horses arrrived in the West/UK, suddenly they had a quality of feed they had never enjoyed before and I think that is why there is such a dramatic change in the photos of those early imports and their later, Crabbet born babies. Lady W was breeding for horses that the Cavalry would happily use and as a result, the use of Nureddinn/Oran created a much more substantial horse, and the Blunts and Lady W were adament about conformation. Crabbet is way overdue for a revisit to the show world. Sooner or later there will be a straight show up that is going to send everyone into orbit. I for one can't wait.
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  11:22:56 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What time is it state side ? are you feeling sleepy yet yes you could well be right, I believe as in all things we have moved on and the horses have moved on also, there is nothing to be gained by not trying to improve,
staying within a tight gene pool has proved that in all creatures and the horse is no exception.
when the Blunts first started to breed , they were initialy wanting to breed horses for racing and outcrossing with other breeds, but of course where won over by the pure breds, so stayed true to them from then on.
Lady wentworth had her own thoughts on the pure breds that didnt always coincide with her parents thought's needless to say she moved on in some respectsonwards and upwards


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  3:25:50 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Maidan is now completely recovered and except for the addition of a couple of small scars, is his old arrogant, boisterous, capricious and extremely impatient self


I don't believe it is possible to overstate the importance of Crabbet or the strength, fundamental soundness, and sheer potential of the damlines. I am sure that the best is yet to come

Mike
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Cate
Platinum Member

Scotland
1785 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  4:12:17 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Cate to your friends list Send Cate a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Glad to hear he is now back to his old self....much to your relief

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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  6:08:39 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Just from looking at old pictures,I think I can see what you mean about Skowronek's head - it's more "dishy" and has a smaller muzzle - he also looks to have slightly more almond shaped eyes. I would think that's what most people would imagine when they think of as an "Arab" face? Beautiful!

Mike - lovely pic of Maidan, his determination is very apparent!

Now wondering if the smaller muzzle has had any adverse effects on teeth/chewing at all? Both of mine use/d a 4 1/2" bit but they are small horses. I know that my vet believes that, if an Arab needs invasive mouth/dental work, it must be done by a vet as they are more difficult to work on. Sorry, off at a tangent here but just wondering.

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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  8:09:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Good heavens, Mike! His side view is so Moniet looking! Incredible beauty. Your dam lines are Seglawi aren't they, i.e., the mares you are breeding to him? Any foal pictures? Would love to see.
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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 11 Sep 2006 :  9:25:50 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Originally posted by Mike

. I am sure that the best is yet to come


Lets hope so
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