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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  2:28:24 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert has comprehensively covered the salient points in the mare's pedigree As to her quality as a broodmare, it may well surprise you to learn that the chestnut filly foal pictured is an Anglo and not a purebred at all Sadly we lost the mare following the mis-diagnosis of an injury by our then vet. By the time a second opinion had been obtained, it was simply too late and the only option was to put her to sleep.

I did strongly suspect that she was likely to be a SCID carrier, but this was I think at a time when the test wasn't available here in the UK.

The mare's final, and most beautiful foal (as well as being the only bay), having been checked over etc by our vet "what a stunning filly, are you keeping this one for breeding?" turned out to be a colt with very odd and unusual plumbing.

Mike
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  7:22:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Oh Mike, what a sad loss. Hopefully by now you have found a different vet! Interestingly, there is a line over here wherein the youngsters have had similar misdiagnoses...Total female anatomy yet internally male! Was that your situation? The Anglo certainly looks to have been a stunner...and one of those that is more purebred looking than many purebreds.

Lynda thank you for the kind words. Time is my problem. Will have a couple of days that are wide open as I've now, and then am off on assignment. When I can come up for air, will see what can be done. One thing about Cam is that I really believe he was a genetic freak for his line breeding on exceptionally well and passing his breeding strength to his gray sons most effectively. Obviously his daughters have been stunning representatives but it is critical to keep the sire line in the gene pool.

Kofi, will run your boy's pedigree later today.


Edited by - Egbert on 03 Sep 2006 7:26:22 PM
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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  7:23:55 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Mike was he hermaphrodite ?

Egbert, Thankyou for your deffiniton most helpfull

Edited by - georgiauk on 03 Sep 2006 7:26:56 PM
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  8:49:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Georgia, thank you!

Kofi, by any chance have you seen Khan's dam in the flesh? The entire pedigree is wonderful, but she has so many special/unusual/well bred horses in hers, am just wondering how you evaluated her in the flesh?
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  9:16:18 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, externally the colt appeared to be a perfectly normal healthy filly. Only the increasingly testosterone fueled behavior (which included agrophobia) made us suspect that "she" may not have been what "she" seemed to be! This was later confirmed by blood tests. At the time we lost the mare, we still believed that we had a daughter to breed from in the future

Mike
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georgiauk
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2605 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  9:30:00 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add georgiauk to your friends list Send georgiauk a Private Message  Reply with Quote
A cruel trick of nature

What do you do with a horse of this gender? I'm intrigued as I've seen it in closely bred canines and they get neutered and live normal lives. I guess it is possible to do the same with a horse but expensive and no guarantee of 'making a nice, personable' neddie.

I have seen a bitch who had a uterus and testes in her abdomen and I wonder if removal of the testes would enable her to breed, obviously not a good idea but it makes you think
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 03 Sep 2006 :  11:48:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
The mare I referenced earlier won nearly EVERYTHING in halter over here before it was discovered what she was...Indeed as with your filly, Mike, her behavior became steadily more studly. I'd heard that she was sterilized as nothing could be done as she had everything of both sexes BUT a uterus. What a sad situation for all concerned!

Oh and just remembered, a friend's maiden mare, started acting very much like a stallion - suddenly. Turned out to be an ovarian tumor with a whole lot of testosterone in it. By the time the surgery was performed it was the size of a grapefruit. Interestingly, though they had to take both tumor and ovary she was left with only one and with it was bred from very successfully!

Edited by - Egbert on 03 Sep 2006 11:51:38 PM
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Fee
Platinum Member


2601 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2006 :  07:20:13 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fee to your friends list Send Fee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Egbert,

Please forgive my asking but I wondered if you got the time could cast your expert eye over my mares pedigree?...I will be after the book you recommended to learn more, but for now I'm still pretty clueless http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/polianka

Thanks if you get the time, but no worries if you're too busy!

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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2006 :  10:18:54 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert, this is where you discover how amateur I am in my knowledge! I just thought Kofi had been so beautiful a horse that I tried to find another with similar breeding and reckoned that great horses like Oran, Blue Domino, Indian King and Indian Gold in there would help. I also knew that the Crystal line was similar.I would have liked Mikeno as well. Apart from that, I just went on what Khan's owner told me as she had owned his sire, Crystal Raj (now sadly deceased at a young age due to accident) and she is very knowledgeable about Khan's mother's line.

Apart from that, I wanted a kind, calm temperament. I'd been to a class in "Conformation of the Horse" and learned about how a horse should "fill the eye". Well, Khan certainly does that for me.I wanted a strong horse with good bone and a deep broad chest and about 14.1 or 14.2. I figured with his breeding that he would have all that and he does. When I saw him lunged, he floated and the clincher was when I rode him - it's like riding on air, comfortable and with that feeling of power beneath you.

I'm not a "real" horse person, I don't know enough to do any ridden showing or anything but I love pleasure rides and endurance and I wanted a beautiful,nice horse to be my friend for life. So that's how I chose him. It is so gratifying to know that I have managed,ignorant as I am, to make such a good choice!

I shall ask more about his mother's line next time I talk to Khan's owner (he's still theoretically on loan, I am buying him this month)as I know she knows a lot about it.Magnifico was a great ridden horse as well, apparently.
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2006 :  10:30:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Fee:

She is a very interestingly bred mare...Russian/Polish; sire line Kuhailan Ajuz imported from the desert for the Balbona stud and bred by the Anazah. In the 5 th generation over half the lines trace to Crabbet Park or Sheykh Obeyd which translated means that she wouldn't look as she does but for Crabbet's creators! And of course she traces to the illustrious Milordka who, in the US, Poland and if I recall correctly, is the most winning of the Seglawi dam lines-or in a dead heat with the Crabbet APS import Bint Helwa. She must be an excellent breeding mare with that pedigree as well as a superb riding mare...With conditioning would imagine you would have fun showing her both in performance as well as halter. To my eye she screams quality and would be simply an outstanding broodmare with one proviso: Breed her to stallions whose foals mature early...an El Shaklan/Padron/Al Lahab type as normally this line doesn't hit it's greatest beauty until 7 years old or older. She must be a delight!
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Fee
Platinum Member


2601 Posts

Posted - 04 Sep 2006 :  7:47:25 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Fee to your friends list Send Fee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert thank you so much for that insight into my girl!

Po has bred 3 foals, 2 to Ffatal Attraction and one to another? Delyth will tell me if she reads this. As far as I know they are all doing well in their chosen field.

I hope to breed a foal from her, just one for me to keep. Being so new and lacking in knowledge I am unsure of which sire I would choose. But, that said I am a year or two away from making a decision anyhow! If you wouldn't mind I would like to ask your opinion on a suitable sire when and if that time arises!

Thank you again for your time

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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  09:06:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Fee,

Will be happy to help...and in the meantime you've some fabulous horsemen here that know the best horses available in the UK plus you have a lot of time to look for the perfect mate! What we can do is when the time comes-narrow the field to two or three stallions and see who on paper looks best. The most important thing to remember is that the best pedigree-the genotype-MUST be reflected in the flesh-phenotype! So we would look at the stallions in terms of what they look like compared to their pedigrees, how they would correct or add to your mare and finally, how their pedigrees compare when married up.

Also one other thing. Would suggest you start really looking at all Arabians and make a list of those that make your heart literally sing and give you gooseflesh. Because in the end, that is what you want your baby to do as well-make your heart sing and give you gooseflesh (gooseflesh is actually what I count on most-a reaction that has never let me down with horses or men for that matter!).
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sapphire blue
Silver Member


England
440 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  2:30:18 PM  Show Profile  Click to see sapphire blue's MSN Messenger address Bookmark this reply Add sapphire blue to your friends list Send sapphire blue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a really fascinating thread, would anyone be able to tell me anymore about my lads CFS Avalon and Satin Moth? I'd be very grateful if someone could look at their pedigrees and tell me any info and if they are any good or not, I too am on the look out for the book mentioned. Thankyou in advance to anyone who can help.

Regards, Sapphire



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kofihorse
Bronze Member

241 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  3:42:26 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kofihorse to your friends list Send kofihorse a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Egbert, when you say, in choosing a stallion,to look for what he would add to or correct in a mare - (realise that this is a HUGE body of information/educated guesswork)- what sorts of things are known/likely to come from the sire? As opposed to the dam? Probably this is a ridiculous question, but I am intrigued to learn.Often wonder about it all, reading threads on this forum, how you all know what to do!

(I only know a little bit about this sort of subject, as I bred Siamese cats for a while and it was VERY complicated!)Would imagine horses are even more so.
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sue
Bronze Member


United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 05 Sep 2006 :  6:24:41 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sue to your friends list Send sue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi, i think im being really stupid here, but could anyone see if they can find the tail female line for these 2 horses and a bit about them as i cant seem to work it out!!!!

Kalibar 1993 by escapade
and
Kimm 1987 by Bay Saab.

thanks Hannah
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  10:58:50 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Sue, just look up allbreeddatabase, type in the horses names, pedigree comes up, go to the bottom female horse, click onto her, up should come her pedigree, then keep doing that until you get to the desert bred mare, there will be your tail female see its easy


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Egbert
Gold Member


USA
1051 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  11:48:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit Egbert's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Egbert to your friends list Send Egbert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
This is a really quick response as I've been away...need to go get some sleep. Thank you Lynda for pointing out www.allbreedpedigree.com. That really helps. I can help here with strain...Kalibar's is Kuhailan Rodania and Kimm's is Seglawi Jedran...(the allbreed site left off a lot in Kimm's dam line. It traces to the APS/Abbas Pasha Blunt import: Bint Helwa.)

Sapphire Blue-you might want to double check your mares on the above link...but a very quick glance says they are of outstanding quality and you should have spectacular results.

Kofi, according to Gazder's Bedu legends...Size and shape come from the stallion all else from the mare. Personally I judge it a little more complexly (is 'complexly' a word?)...When you study pedigrees ... each and every horse bred has a breeding pattern. Some lines act like water in a soup recipe. The more you add the more you dilute. Others tend to add quality; others detract...A stallion over here, imported from the UK, had an odd way of breeding on...He could be deadly for beauty but consistently passed his outstanding motion. Carmargue seemed to have an almost neutral pedigree in that only if married up with the proper mares did he produce great beauty. Conversely, I don't know one of his youngsters that didn't move properly if not spectacularly! Then there are stallions like *Bask...consistently plain babies but when in motion........nothing could touch them except some of the old Azrek line mares. They literally became stunningly beautiful. Darndest thing I ever saw. More later.
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nikki
Platinum Member


Wales
4384 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  12:06:03 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nikki to your friends list Send nikki a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Egbert,

Just wondering if you can find out any info on this mare, Hamdanieh Habiba.
Being a Bahraini mare, i'm struggling to find out any more info on her and her relatives.
Her tail female line is listed as Hamdanieh Habiba (Ukrainka)
Very much appreciated,
Thanks Nikki

pagey

Edited by - nikki on 06 Sep 2006 1:29:34 PM
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sue
Bronze Member


United Kingdom
169 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  12:29:54 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sue to your friends list Send sue a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi, thanks for that ive managed to have a look and i dont know whether i have done this correct but ive gone back to Kuhaylahajuz for my horse Kalibar. How do i find out about the horse though? (sorry being really dim) and for my other horse Kimm it only went back to Kismet 112 which was only 4th generation, Is this correct?

Sorry for all the questions im trying to get bits and pieces together about both my horses so i can have a little book on them both!
so any help would be greatly welcomed!!!!

these are their pedigrees

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kimm2

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/kalibar


thank you, Hannah
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shelley t
Bronze Member


England
189 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  12:39:21 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add shelley t to your friends list Send shelley t a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi,

My mare is Vaddiyah. http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/vaddiyah
Would i be right in saying that her tail female is Verana.

Any info on her pedigree would be greatly appreciated.

thanks in advance
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  12:45:27 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Poor old Egbert has made a rod for her back now


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  6:04:47 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Shelley, as far as the pedigree goes yes it is, there are no more horses on that line on the pedigree, , but it may be there was no more information, and it may go back farther! but how you find out I am not at all sure, I hope Egbert can help you on that one.


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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anne
Gold Member

England
877 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  6:33:37 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add anne to your friends list Send anne a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Hi Sue my horse Taraneh also goes back to Kuhaylahajuz. But when i first but her name in only her sire's side came up. I put in her dam's and grand dam's name untill I got one that went back on the dams side then but in the link forward to her If you posted the name of the last horse you got back to, maybe someone else will have the same link and be able to help you get back further. Hope this helps


..................................................................... Photo by David Evans
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Honeyb060674
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4301 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  6:38:26 PM  Show Profile  Send Honeyb060674 an AOL message Bookmark this reply Add Honeyb060674 to your friends list Send Honeyb060674 a Private Message  Reply with Quote
My mare also goes back to Kuhaylahajuz, and like Sue would be interested on any further information people may have on this horse


Claire & Sunny x
http://sunnyandclaire.blogspot.com/
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geegee
Platinum Member


England
3682 Posts

Posted - 06 Sep 2006 :  6:44:38 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add geegee to your friends list Send geegee a Private Message  Reply with Quote
SNAP - mine too!

Another one that would be interested.....
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