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Nick
Gold Member

United Kingdom
887 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  4:15:24 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Nick to your friends list Send Nick a Private Message
Pity really more people were not joining in this thread and not lurking Breeding is the key without breeders where would we be,
Come on everyone you must have views on breeding
Dragon
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Basilisk
Gold Member

United Kingdom
521 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  5:32:58 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Basilisk to your friends list Send Basilisk a Private Message
Originally posted by Vygoda

Today's thought :

By narrowing the gene pool dramatically by selection for preservation or whatever, especially as Keren said no new horses can be added, as far as you know do you think that horses bred within the selected pool become smaller and smaller heightwise ? Just thinking really about the 'Davenport horses' but it might apply to other groups.

And thinking about one of Nick's posts earlier in this thread, no horse is perfect so some points have to be forgiven when using mares and stallions for breeding and looking at the complete horse physical package. Your thoughts about what you love or hate physically, and would forgive?

And what about breeding for colour only ?

Jane



I don't think reduction in height is an inevitable consequence of inbreeding - though Skowronek possessed a genetic quirk which *did* result in drastically reduced height when close inbreeding was practiced to him, as witness Raffles and two mares bred at Kellogg's (names escape at the mo'). OTOH, the smallest Arab I have ever seen in this country was Zehros, and he was the result of a completely "cold" cross - Argos on to Nuhra line.

I don' t hold with breeding for any *one* factor at all - though colour is probably the worst of all, since being a superficial quality it does tend to appeal to those who aren't yet educated in conformation etc ( as per Lindylou's comment!). If anyone else here remembers the early black imports, they were not an impressive bunch, almost all lacking in type. The horse used in 'The Black Stallion' movie, incidentally (Cass Ole), was NOT bred for colour: his background is largely Al-Marah and his turning out black is one of those peculiar genetic twists :)

The obsession with black Arabs is yet another American Thing: the Black Stallion books are sort of the American equivalent of the Silver Brumby series, and the first was written when the author was only 18 and knew very little about Arabs!

Keren
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Basilisk
Gold Member

United Kingdom
521 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  5:45:39 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Basilisk to your friends list Send Basilisk a Private Message
Originally posted by Mike

To digress again, if it has ever crossed your mind that arab breeders seem to have difficulty making sensible informed breeding decisions.Or are unduly influenced by fashion or hype. Read this and weep

http://www.thoroughbredinfo.com/nicks.htm

Mike


IMO, the problem we have today is that we have 'over-egged the pudding' . Back in the 1970s, when the breed was dominated by heavy, over-conditioned chestnut sabinos of overwhelmingly Crabbet ancestry, we needed something to act as both a kick in the pants and to lighten the mix. However, since that time, we have seen both a plethora of imported stock AND the emergence of the short-term breeder: one who breeds maybe only one or two generations of foals before losing interest. Typically, these people don't have much understanding about the background of their stock, so fashion is the only thing they can go by.

Those 'amateur' breeders (meaning it in the best sense) who ARE in it for the long term are less likely to be influenced by fads, but professionals do have to go with fashion if they are to maintain viable.

And regarding nicks - IMO, the only way to know when you've got one is to see it on the ground!

Keren
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BobandEna
Gold Member


England
828 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  5:57:39 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BobandEna to your friends list Send BobandEna a Private Message
Hi Nick,

One spends a lifetime building a network of friends and sometimes one, just one word out of place or not in context can loose you some if not all of those friends. So as you requested I would now like to put my head on the line and tell you what I think, it is not a bible, it is not an authoritarian view, it is what I think.

I think most of you are using one phrase to describe a subject that is out of the scope of that phrase, what do I mean by that?

In relation to the Arabian horse, every one of us that takes a foal from a PURE Arabian mating is “Preservation Breeding” you are preserving the purity of the species called the Arabian horse, full stop.

The Blunts first horses were Arabians long before they were Crabbett. The Kellogg horses also; do I have to go on? What you are doing is referring to a recipe as PRESIVATION in fact it is not.

What I am saying is, every good Chef or Cook is always looking for that final product that is better than their last, Arabian horse breeders are in fact (Chefs) they take certain ingredients, they blend them and hope to be known for that recipe. I have lost count of the breeders I know of who spend tens of years perfecting one recipe, then turning their backs on it and starting over again.

Now if you are asking me, Do I find one recipe more edible than the other, then the answer is YES, I well remember the days that if you did not have the Crabbet recipe, you would not stand a chance in the show ring in the UK, in fact I will go as fare as to say Many of today’s so called show Horses with long necks, bad legs, no feet, would have been culled, a practice associated today with the Polish and Russian state breeding programs, but this is not NEW, if you are chasing perfection then you can’t allow bad ingredients to go into your recipe.

So to me Se, Crabbet, Doyle, Ansata, Kellog, Blue List, and all the rest are Recipe’s in the BIG BOOK called The Arabian Horse. A lot more could be said about the integrity of the breeders of yesteryear but for now I will await my fate.

YOU DID ASK

Kind Regards

Bob


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Nick
Gold Member

United Kingdom
887 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  7:15:37 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Nick to your friends list Send Nick a Private Message
Hi Bob you are so right it is a melting pot,But there again the whole World is one big melting point,And i believe bloodlines will come and go,But the art form is not to allow it to go backwards,Everything thing is important from Type through legs and beyond,Presence is vital Arabians should never be in the "kitchen at parties"
We are seeing more Extreme Horses, but also more extreme showing methods and PR sometimes these things are over the top,But other times in the right hands look fantastic,Again where is the line drawn,
My line is drawn with "Shanking" but that is another thread,
But by far the most important ingrediant breeding tool is Honesty from within, knowing your horses weakness and being honest enough not to turn a blind eye to it,No rose tinted glasses,Breeding with the head and the heart,
Dragon
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Basilisk
Gold Member

United Kingdom
521 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  7:30:01 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Basilisk to your friends list Send Basilisk a Private Message
Bob, I like your 'chef' analogy, but there's a difference between being a chef and someone who just chucks all the ingredients in and hopes for the best!

Remember when you were a kid and played with plasticene? You'd mix a couple of colours and get a really nice third colour, so then you'd reason that if you went the whole hog and mixed all the colours together, you'd get something really spectacular? Instead of that, though, all you got was a nasty icky brown mess...

To me that's what 'preservation' breeding is about - keeping a range of colours (or flavours, Bob!) separate, so that they are available for future generations to combine at their discretion to produce something even better!

Keren
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 04 Dec 2005 :  8:43:09 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message
Another good way of putting it Karen and makes so much sense


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2005 :  08:14:58 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message
My pet hates in no order (the list is rather long!) are lack of length from hip to point of quarter, a low carried tail (naturally I mean, not not gingered), lack of open free movement that can't be there if the shoulder isn't laid back (no daisy cutters for me thank you ), a neck that has no arch on the poll or in the throat latch, a good handsome eye without the dreadful lack of lower eyelid you see so often these days, and open flat ears.

I will forgive slightly dodgy leg and hoof faults as sometimes they are man-made not a natural inheritance. And I will forgive too a longish back.

For me what the horse HAS to have above all is style and quality with very fine neck and tail hair and a thin coat, and a look and way of going that says 'Hey, I can only be an Arabian horse' . DOES ANY ONE HAVE AND WANTS TO SELL THIS KIND OF HORSE?

My favourite terminology and what I try to do is pick pieces of perfection rather than concentrating on the weak points especially if you know what the horses looked like in the pedigree so you don't keep doubling up on them. A bit Bob, like your chef recipe but you have to know the ingredients before you mix them, don't you?

Over to you guys!

Jane

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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2005 :  08:21:58 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message
P.S. i don't mind a 'straight' head but the eye must be large and well placed and the head not too long from eye to nostril!! IMO, dishy heads are the easiest to breed and put on within one generation.
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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 05 Dec 2005 :  10:25:10 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message
Re; the breeding for colour, I would like to know where Cass ole's black gene came from, I have looked way back into his pedigree and can't find any blacks!


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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Basilisk
Gold Member

United Kingdom
521 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2005 :  1:16:38 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Basilisk to your friends list Send Basilisk a Private Message
Originally posted by Vygoda

P.S. i don't mind a 'straight' head but the eye must be large and well placed and the head not too long from eye to nostril!! IMO, dishy heads are the easiest to breed and put on within one generation.



Well, I have a 2yo that fits most of the rquirements, but I don't know if I ought to mention him as he's....black!

Keren
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Basilisk
Gold Member

United Kingdom
521 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2005 :  1:19:07 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Basilisk to your friends list Send Basilisk a Private Message
Originally posted by LYNDILOU

Re; the breeding for colour, I would like to know where Cass ole's black gene came from, I have looked way back into his pedigree and can't find any blacks!


None of the colour gurus I know have come up with a satisfactory answer to that either...

Back on the colour theme, in another thread, people were discussing 'plum' coloured Arabs. I am very interested horses of this colour, for a research project of my own, so if anyone can send me photos and breeding of these horses, I'd be really grateful!

(It might even explain where Cass Ole got his colour from!)

Keren
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zara
Gold Member


United Kingdom
1066 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2005 :  2:20:22 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zara to your friends list Send zara a Private Message
Quote from The Crabbet Arabian Stud, by Archer, Pearson, Covey.
Chapter 11 p.186
Rissam (Rim x Naseem) " was a dark chestnut of a wonderfully deep plum, almost purple shade with a lighter reddish mane."

Interesting?

"to his virtues ever kind, and to his faults a little blind".
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Basilisk
Gold Member

United Kingdom
521 Posts

Posted - 06 Dec 2005 :  10:37:13 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Basilisk to your friends list Send Basilisk a Private Message
Originally posted by zara

Quote from The Crabbet Arabian Stud, by Archer, Pearson, Covey.
Chapter 11 p.186
Rissam (Rim x Naseem) " was a dark chestnut of a wonderfully deep plum, almost purple shade with a lighter reddish mane."

Interesting?


Definitely - more please from everyone, the more obscure the better!

BTW, did anyone here buy the Barbara Titcumb photo book that was on ebay a few days ago? I went to look at it again today and it seems to have finished!

Keren
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Anfi
Gold Member


Denmark
1195 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2005 :  08:27:05 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Anfi to your friends list Send Anfi a Private Message
If you mean "An Illustrated Guide to the Arabian Horse in Great Britain", yes I bid for it but was outbid 9 seconds before the listing ended.. Tough luck
I really would have liked to have it

Anne




I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon
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zara
Gold Member


United Kingdom
1066 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2005 :  1:20:46 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add zara to your friends list Send zara a Private Message
I find the Proximo thing interesting too Keren. Lady Anne declaired him a "failure at stud" but he may have been Nefisa's sire. He may also be the sire of another mare, either Rosemary or Rose of Sharon, cant remember which.
I've read somewhere about one of the eary mares' decendants being "maroon" in colour. I wonder if theres a connection with Rissam? I'd better go now an see if I can find which book i've read this in.

"to his virtues ever kind, and to his faults a little blind".
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Jingo
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
3632 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2005 :  2:53:03 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Jingo to your friends list Send Jingo a Private Message
Keren/Anfi,
was it The Picture Gallery of Arabian Horses compiled by Barbara Titcumb?

If so I have the second gallery - I could try photocopying it if you want.

Jude
www.auchmillanarabians.org.uk

photos:Anthony Reynolds,Sweet,Deano,Real Time Imaging
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C.J.
Silver Member


United Kingdom
288 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2005 :  6:38:14 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add C.J. to your friends list Send C.J. a Private Message
Keren & Anfi

Following on from Jude's post regarding The Picture Gallery of Arabian Horses (Barbara Titcumb) - I've got copies of both issues, the 1st (1969) and 2nd (1971)so could scan or copy particular pages if you wanted them.

Caroline

PS will see what I can find out about 'plums' Keren, colour is such a fascinating subject isn't it!

"And God said to the Wind 'Be thou gathered together.' And the wind was gathered together....And he created from a handful of wind a horse of chestnut colour like gold. And God let loose the Swift Runner, and he went on his way neighing."

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Anfi
Gold Member


Denmark
1195 Posts

Posted - 07 Dec 2005 :  10:42:52 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Anfi to your friends list Send Anfi a Private Message
Hi Keren, Jude Caroline,

The book you've mentioned is still for sale at ebay. The seller is a member of this forum - rasaqa. The one I bid for was compiled by Major Maxwell I think.

Caroline, thanks a lot for your offer - you don't know what you've gotten yourself into Is there any possibility of seeing a list of the horses that are depicted?

It is so enlightening to see pictures of the horses that make up the gene pool of today - it makes breeding less of a gamble - or what do you think? To stay in Bob's analogy, the more you know about the ingredients for the soup, the better you can predict the final flavour of your finished product.

Anne




I Do What I Can and I Am What I Am - Fay Weldon
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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2005 :  2:50:23 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message
Yesterday, a friend of mine in Australia photographed the stallion Shandine by The Shah x Manipuljazia bred by Mrs Joan Ratcliff. He's 33 years old and looks fantastic. I am hoping she will write something about him for a UK mag with photographs attached.

Does anyone remember him?

What a blast from the past that will be !

Jane
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barb
Bronze Member

United Kingdom
161 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2005 :  5:11:45 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add barb to your friends list Send barb a Private Message
Golly that is amazing, it would really be good to see photos of him. I do not remember him, but I have very fond memories of Manipuljazia, she was still at Claverdon when I worked there, so my very first introduction to russian arabians. I believe Libby still has El Campeador, by Dorian x Manipuljazia, a great racehorse he was. Regards Barb
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4710 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2005 :  5:56:21 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Libby Frost to your friends list Send Libby Frost a Private Message
Don't own him anymore but my friends have him he is TOUCH WOOD BIGTIME very well at the grand old age of 29,he is so beautiful i allways wanted to see pictures of Jazz as Camps has this fab russian head,which obviously came from her.

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LYNDILOU
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
13976 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2005 :  6:30:18 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add LYNDILOU to your friends list Send LYNDILOU a Private Message
Hi Jane, what about asking your friend to write for OUR online magazine ?, we have a lot of coverage from abroad wait till you see the new christmas edition !!


www.dreamfield-arabians.com
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BobandEna
Gold Member


England
828 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2005 :  7:17:54 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BobandEna to your friends list Send BobandEna a Private Message
Hi Jane,

Yes I do but it was a long long time ago.

Barb,

Talking about Dorian and Manipuljazia
And Shandine in the Preservation Breeding, well Jane mentioned someone who I think should be remembered for her contribution to the Arabian horse cause, that lady is Joan Ratcliff. I remember vividly the days running around the rings with Joan judging, she was always fair and found time for a word or two for each one of us and she bred some GOOD Arabians too.

Regards

Bob
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Libby Frost
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4710 Posts

Posted - 08 Dec 2005 :  7:31:05 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Libby Frost to your friends list Send Libby Frost a Private Message
Hear hear Bob you dont have ant pics of Manipuljazia floating about PLEASE!

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