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 egyptian arabs and crabbet percentages
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mogwai
Platinum Member


England

2717 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2009 :  3:49:29 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add mogwai to your friends list Send mogwai a Private Message
It is my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong someone!) that egyptian bred arabians carry alot of crabbet blood. is this the case? Do they all go back to a few select crabbets, and do most of them have a similar amount of crabbet blood?
Ros
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nikki
Platinum Member


Wales
4384 Posts

Posted - 26 Mar 2009 :  4:41:22 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add nikki to your friends list Send nikki a Private Message
hiya ros,

yes look at my se mare, she is 30 odd% crabbet
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/melika+daleeha

pagey
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mogwai
Platinum Member


England
2717 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2009 :  11:04:15 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mogwai to your friends list Send mogwai a Private Message
Gosh, i see what you mean. For some reason i didn't expect crabbet bred horses to be so recent in the pedigree.
How many lines has she to Nazeer? There looks like hundreds? She must be grey is she?
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member


Wales
3776 Posts

Posted - 27 Mar 2009 :  8:35:48 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrs Vlacq to your friends list Send Mrs Vlacq a Private Message
It's interesting and mind boggling - eg Shah Shadow's Babson % also 'ups' his Crabbet %.
Peter Upton used to say there is no such things as Straight Egyptian


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pat ww
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
3459 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2009 :  08:48:46 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add pat ww to your friends list Send pat ww a Private Message
and non of us have the temerity to question him! I will not live long enough to gain the knowledge he has amassed.

I think with all these lables it just applies to the original arabs selected by the breeders of the day, who were not necessarily prioritising the same features, and with selective breeding fixed the ones they prefered within a particular group of bloodlines.

Mine are mixtures, Virtually pure Crabbet, SE, high per cent Polish etc. At the end of the day they are all Arabs, some bloodlines known for being strong in certain features.
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
4531 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2009 :  10:51:21 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add barbara.gregory to your friends list Send barbara.gregory a Private Message
Some Crabbet are SE and some not so.
It is my understanding (correct me if i'm wrong someone!) that egyptian bred arabians carry alot of crabbet blood. is this the case?

I would have actually put it the other way round and said that some Crabbets carry a lot of Egyptian blood. Some of the earlier Crabbets were SE.

Barbara

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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member


Wales
3776 Posts

Posted - 28 Mar 2009 :  8:36:10 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrs Vlacq to your friends list Send Mrs Vlacq a Private Message
Alexia kindly worked it out for us... Princeton Mariner (SBE and also SO I am informed by the SO chaps!) is actually 25.78% Crabbet


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mogwai
Platinum Member


England
2717 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2009 :  6:57:39 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mogwai to your friends list Send mogwai a Private Message
Sorry to be a bit of a div, but what does SO stand for?
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member


Wales
3776 Posts

Posted - 29 Mar 2009 :  8:34:09 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrs Vlacq to your friends list Send Mrs Vlacq a Private Message
Sheikh Obeyd (though I never spell it right)


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mogwai
Platinum Member


England
2717 Posts

Posted - 30 Mar 2009 :  7:07:27 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mogwai to your friends list Send mogwai a Private Message
Thanks
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Bex
Gold Member


Wales
559 Posts

Posted - 04 Apr 2009 :  5:06:12 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bex to your friends list Send Bex a Private Message
I've just seen this thread, Its all very interesting!
I have an Egyptian mare- Africah http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/africah
Could anyone tell me if she has any crabbet blood, and if so, roughly what sort of percentage?
I'd love to know if anyone could give me an idea that would be great!
Becci.

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Qui Gon Jinn
Platinum Member


Scotland
1627 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2009 :  12:52:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit Qui Gon Jinn's Homepage Bookmark this reply Add Qui Gon Jinn to your friends list Send Qui Gon Jinn a Private Message
Becci, Africah does have some Crabbet blood through the infulence of Nazeer (who was 25% Crabbet) on both her sire's and Dam's lines 5th generation back. I'd have to sit and work it out (which takes ages!!) but she does have a small amount of Crabbet blood present.

The Soul would have no Rainbow....If the Eyes had shed no Tears.
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Bex
Gold Member


Wales
559 Posts

Posted - 06 Apr 2009 :  3:41:11 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bex to your friends list Send Bex a Private Message
Thanks Jayne

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Athena
Silver Member


England
442 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2009 :  7:21:04 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
Hi Everyone, Just to say these definitions do overlap and it does end up a bit confusing if you are not careful. It is true from one perspective that the original Blunt programme at Crabbet was a combination of Arabians fromn the breeding of Ali Pasha Sherif (that you could describe as Old Egyptian) with purchases direct from the desert tribes - these are usually described as "Blunt" because the Blunts were responsible for collecting them and bringing them into an organised breeding programme. Most modern Crabbets are still 40-45% Ali Pasha Sherif breeding and the same of those "Blunt" desert lines plus a dash of Wentworth additions such as Skowronek etc.

Al Khamsa uses a useful system of bloodline source labels that describes any Arabian in terms of the original source/collector of its source lines. Some bloodlines that were one offs, rather than part of a collection, are described with the name of the horse rather than their collector.

In Al Khamsa terms, both the original RAS Egptian breeding programme and the original Blunt breeding programme at Crabbet are Egyptian/Blunt in source lines. In modern terms it can be useful to differentiate between "Old" Egyptian and "New" as the EAO added other lines which would also be described as Egyptian. The Sheykh Obeyd designation basically means "Old" Egyptian and "Blunt" lines only and can in theory cover some of the Doyle horses and Crabbet/Old Egyptian horses in America as well as Straight Egyptians of all RAS bloodlines - the latter including Babson of course.

All this also means that you can describe a Crabbet Arabian as having an Egyptian percentage (i.e. the Ali Pasha Sherif component) as well as describing many Eqyptians as having a Crabbet percentage (both the Blunt desert lines component AND the Ali Pasha Sherif component that comes via Blunt bred Arabians). Both positions are equally valid and not mutually exclusive. In other words a Straight Egyptian with a Crabbet percentage is still Straight Egyptian and a Straight Crabbet Arabian is not less Crabbet because of its Old Egyptian component.

The irony is that today Egyptians and Crabbets are perceived as very different largely because the selection priorities have been rather different in more recent generations in many programmes BUT they actually have much more in common in bloodline terms than any other two Arabian bloodline groups. Personally I also think this goes to show that breeder selection has more impact on the end result than the source bloodlines of a century or more ago.

All Arabians under it all anyway. Hope I haven't confused you all senseless!
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Mrs Vlacq
Platinum Member


Wales
3776 Posts

Posted - 12 Apr 2009 :  10:55:04 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mrs Vlacq to your friends list Send Mrs Vlacq a Private Message
Thank you Athena - very well explained.... all makes my brain hurt but thank goodness for brainy and dedicated people like yourself!!


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mogwai
Platinum Member


England
2717 Posts

Posted - 13 Apr 2009 :  08:24:50 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add mogwai to your friends list Send mogwai a Private Message
Wow, thanks Alexia! Yes, it does make sense though as Mrs Vlacq said, perhaps not to the degree it should . Thanks for taking the time
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kastell
Silver Member

France
430 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2009 :  9:08:12 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add kastell to your friends list Send kastell a Private Message
Hi all, just read this topic as was looking at some Straight Egyption, pure Sheikh Obeyd Arabs & couldn't believe how similar they are to Crabbets! Never heard of SE SO before a few days ago (Gerri's fault!!), so thought I'd do a search on ALines & voila!!!! A very good explanation Alexia!!! But I have a question for Alexia (pretty please!), if today's Crabbets are 40-45% SO'd, does that mean today's SO Arabs are 55-60% Crabbet, or have I miss understood & being thick?!? Just out of interest, as I see quite a few Crabbet horses in their pedigrees & always looking to better my knowledge! Another question, are there any pure crabbets left that are 100%Blunt bred (I read that were some breeders in the states but that was while ago!)? Thanks in advance!


Edited by - kastell on 30 May 2009 10:03:22 PM
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BeckyBoodle
Gold Member


Australia
795 Posts

Posted - 30 May 2009 :  11:49:16 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add BeckyBoodle to your friends list Send BeckyBoodle a Private Message
Sorry still a bit confused. My girl has Crabbet breeding, but is SE plus I am told New Egyptian, and Babson plus CMK - is that right?

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/eas+boadicea

B
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