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Athena
Silver Member


England

442 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2008 :  3:39:51 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this topic Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
Well my copy of The Arabian has just arrived and I was amazed to see a news snippet on the discovery of a pure-bred Arabian Palomino in the Middle East! Haven't been brave enough to phone the number given but am fascinated to know what bloodlines produced this horse - anyone know any more?

Then again it has always seemed to me that some colours that no longer occur in registered pure-bred Arabians probably originated there and passed to other breeds from them. Lady Wentworth certainly believed that the Palomino colour came from the Arabian and there are documents showing that there used to be Arabians of colours we no longer find today - Trabag the spotted mare in Argentina for example. America is managing to breed pure-bred "paint" Arabians too.

Anyone know of any other unusual Arabian colours? Alexia
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Bexandspooky
Silver Member


England
326 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2008 :  5:25:37 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Bexandspooky to your friends list Send Bexandspooky a Private Message
Oooh - this could be one one of those fantastic picture posts - wow us with all the amazing unusual colours!!

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sarahlock
Platinum Member


England
1533 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2008 :  8:42:24 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add sarahlock to your friends list Send sarahlock a Private Message
Is there a picture of it ?
Some pale chestnuts with very blonde manes & tails do look very similar but i diidn`t think pure Arabs carried the dilute (creme ) gene .


Brixham (South Devon )
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polly
Platinum Member


2183 Posts

Posted - 20 Jul 2008 :  9:23:14 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add polly to your friends list Send polly a Private Message
CAN'T WAIT TO SEE IT !!!


Photos1and2EricGJones
pollywells@.live.co.uk
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Havenbeech
Silver Member


Wales
418 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2008 :  08:24:36 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Havenbeech to your friends list Send Havenbeech a Private Message
For this to be a true genetic palomino as opposed to a visually pleasing flaxen chestnut, at least one parent and one grandparent etc etc etc would have to be a carrier of the dilute gene. It is impossible for the dilute gene just to pop up out of nowhere so i guess we are looking at a chestnut or a freak! LOL
Either way - i bet its gorgeous

www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies

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emma
Gold Member

816 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2008 :  09:06:51 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add emma to your friends list Send emma a Private Message
There was a recent thread on another forum about palamino arabs and the genetics seem to suggest that these palaminos were infact chestnuts with flaxen although to the eye some did look very palamino.

I have one at home who has a white mane and tail and many have asked if she is a palamino. Her half brother by the same stallion is also the same. I understand this colour to have come from the Ali Jamaal blood and i was told there are a fair few in Brazil of this colour. However they are chestnuts with flaxen even though they do look like palaminos!

Emma
Fulmer House Arabians
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Athena
Silver Member


England
442 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2008 :  12:26:04 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
Is there a gene test for the dilute gene like there is for black etc? I know there are general theories that the dilute gene did probably originate in oriental/Arab bloodlines - the breeds in which it does occur all have strong Arab influence. Nonetheless I did understand that the dilute gene no longer survived in the limited gene pool of pure-bred Arabians in the world now. These things are not constant after all. Colours that once existed in a breed can vanish especially if they are not recessive and cannot be carried over generations and then "pop out" again.

Doesn't it rather depend on what bloodlines this newly discovered horse is? Is it something with which we are familiar or does it carry Arabian blood native to its own country of origin that is not in our mainstream?

Strange colours can manifest inexplicably sometimes. There is the case of the pure-bred Arabian stallion Boomori Simply Stunning in Australia - he was born pure-white with pink skin from two dark bay parents. I do not know if it was ever discovered if this was a recessive of some kind (no record of white horses turning up in his pedigree) or some kind of spontaneous mutation. Simply Stunning's foals were all born pink skinned and white too. He was a 100% Crabbet horse of Blunt + Skowronek sources only - no record of this kind of white turning up from this breeding any other time.

So where are these promised PICs of interesting colours? Alexia
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Havenbeech
Silver Member


Wales
418 Posts

Posted - 21 Jul 2008 :  4:54:29 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Havenbeech to your friends list Send Havenbeech a Private Message
Mag just arrived - read article with interest - Llanrummney is my fmilys home town! LOL

There is a test for dilute Athena - its a very simple dominant gene
so once lost from a breed cannot be revived without new blood.

My guess would be that she is a flaxen chestnut, she must be a pretty special mare to go to the bother of importing her.....

Either that or the lure of an "apparently" palomino arabian was too much to ignore?!


www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies

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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
4544 Posts

Posted - 26 Jul 2008 :  12:31:28 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rozy Rider to your friends list Send Rozy Rider a Private Message
Was there a picture of this Arabian Palomino ????? or a name & breeding please ???

Found Boomori and leaving the link..
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/boomori+simply+stunning
Sue

Sue

Edited by - Rozy Rider on 26 Jul 2008 12:35:35 AM
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honey
Platinum Member


N. Ireland
2633 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  12:50:01 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add honey to your friends list Send honey a Private Message
would also love to see the pictures. I am sure my stallion is carrying a dilute gene, all his foals are born very very dilute in colour. one has turned into a bright bay(actually chestnut with black points), one went a dark bay and the latest foal no idea what colour she is going to be, but some shade of bay. I often get people ask if my stallion is palomino, cause apart from the mane and tail being a darker flaxen he looks very palomino in colour.


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Evie
Platinum Member


England
3511 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  01:53:18 AM  Show Profile  Click to see Evie's MSN Messenger address Bookmark this reply Add Evie to your friends list Send Evie a Private Message


Is it this one?

Bristol
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pintoarabian
Gold Member

Scotland
1230 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  06:53:38 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add pintoarabian to your friends list Send pintoarabian a Private Message
There's also a report in the current Horse & Hound of a palomino Thoroughbred foal born in the UK.

http://www.performancearabians.com
http://performancearabians.blogspot.com/
https://www.facebook.com/PerformanceArabians
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susan p
Gold Member


Scotland
915 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  08:21:11 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add susan p to your friends list Send susan p a Private Message
Evie,
What a beautifull horse,what is its name?


www.blackislearabians.com
The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the ways its animals are treated
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Havenbeech
Silver Member


Wales
418 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  10:26:25 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Havenbeech to your friends list Send Havenbeech a Private Message
Evie - that looks like Faberge who was a shulay stallion.

Shulay bred lots of high percentage palominos - if the pic is indeed of Faberge then he was sired by Eldyr, a purebred chestnut stallion who SHulay used extensively in their breeding programme due to his flaxen mane and tail.

Faberge's dam was bred by the Fayrelands stud - another top producing high percentage arabian stud. She was also sired by a purebred, a Donax son by the name of Quadeha. Her dam was a mixture of arab and other blood including TB and Connemara.

Is is here that the damline inherited the cream gene from the Connemara - some 5 generations back the cream gene was introduced and has carried on down to Shulay Faberge.

It is possible to obtain a palomino with 99%+ arabian blood through selective breeding like they have done with the coloured gene and the arabs producing what is known as a pintabian, but there can never be a purebred palomino arabian without the introduction of the cream gene somewhere in the pedigree.

In Connemaras, and also with the welsh breeds, there is a high percentage of palominos and buckskins making them the ideal breed for introducing this valuable gene.


www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies

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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
4544 Posts

Posted - 27 Jul 2008 :  2:03:55 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rozy Rider to your friends list Send Rozy Rider a Private Message
So is the stallion they're on about a pure bred or not, I thought it was an Arabian....not a part bred..therer are several part bred Palomino's they arn't rare. Can anyone tell us the name & breeding of this one in Saudi...Thanks Sue..

Sue
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Athena
Silver Member


England
442 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2008 :  6:31:10 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
The news column in The Arabian stresses that those importing have checked the papaerwork and that the horse is a pure-bred Arabian. What is not clear is precisely where in the "middle east" it hails from and whether it is from lines we are familiar with or carries other "desert" lines that could have provided a dilute gene currently not found in our mainstream "western" registered Arabians. I doubt any of us are up to speed with every accepted pure-bred Arabian bloodline on the planet - there are some pretty obscure ones from our Western perspective!

Maybe I'll have to get brave and phone up for the pedigree! Alexia
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Chris James
Silver Member


United Kingdom
492 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2008 :  7:16:11 PM  Show Profile  Send Chris James an AOL message Bookmark this reply Add Chris James to your friends list Send Chris James a Private Message
This was a TB palomino imported last year -- look for Goshka Sport horse site.

"2006 JC palomino sabino thoroughbred colt imported from the USA, to mature approx. 16.3 hands. Gold Fox is the first palomino thoroughbred in the UK!

Our search for a palomino stallion prospect with the size and quality we desired took us to Virginia in Autumn 2006. By visiting Gold Fox's breeder at Norsire Farm we were able to assess not only his personal attributes but those of his extended family and siblings spanning several generations."

I saw him last year - he's pretty and will be big I think.


Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians
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Havenbeech
Silver Member


Wales
418 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2008 :  8:37:07 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Havenbeech to your friends list Send Havenbeech a Private Message
So i take it that the pedigree gives the horse in question a continuous line of purebred dilute parentage remembering that the dilute gene is dominant and cannot skip generations.

Dont get me wrong - it would be fabulous if this horse were purebred, what doesn't convince me is that this is the first the western world has heard of it as its parent and parent parent etc etc etc must all have been palominos/buckskins/dilute black themselves.

Has the horse in question tested positive for Cream?

www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies

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jackie k
Gold Member


Wales
889 Posts

Posted - 28 Jul 2008 :  9:39:52 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jackie k to your friends list Send jackie k a Private Message
Hi Jodie

Do you have the book called something like "colour explained" or something like that - it is a book that explains all how the colours come about if they are mixed with another and about dilutes and homozygous etc.....

In there there is a picture of a pure bred arab palomino (if my memory serves me right) - they said this was a one off...

If you don't know the book Jackie (Lou's mom) will know the one I mean and I will have a look to see if I can pull the book out and give you the information....

Sorry to be vague - memory is rubbish at the moment....

Jackie
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Athena
Silver Member


England
442 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  08:07:02 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
Given that none of us know the breeding of this palomino Arab, I am unclear as to why everyone is so convinced they would have heard of any bloodline in the world that still carried the dilute gene in a pure-bred Arabian context. There are still some studbooks that are relatively new to being accepted worldwide and still countries whose Arab breeding is not aimed at or involved in commercial Western showing - such people might well have no idea that the dilute factor presented something rare and valuable to the Western market. This horse was apparently being used as a tourist hack for hire when "found"!

I really will try and make that phone call ... maybe breeding info will shed some light. It would also be interesting to know if this horse has actually been tested for the dilute gene or whether the assessment has been done by eye only - makes a huge difference. Alexia
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Havenbeech
Silver Member


Wales
418 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  09:01:18 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Havenbeech to your friends list Send Havenbeech a Private Message
Hiya Jackie, have a few books on colour genetics though not seen any with pics of a palomino purebred in them. This is not to say that they dont exist!!! Just that it would be highly unusual and no doubt others like myself would be hugely interested in the genetic makeup and the bloodlines that are responsible for this.

There is one with an article on pure white "pink skinned" arabians but this didn't seem to be a form of dilute, more like a genetic mutatation of sabino but with dark eyes. - What was really interesting about the article is that all foals resulted from the same repeated mating illustrating how recessive genes can be carried and apparently lost until finding a similar carrier with which to express themselves.

I dont think anyone here is hoping this story can be disproven - just a mad thirst for knowledge on how its happened, and as we can only go on what we know and suspect at present, we have to asume that it is a genetic impossibility - it would be rather nice to have a wild card thrown in that leads to more investigation!! Perhaps the horse in question is indeed palomino to the eye, but caused by a different gene other than cream, the fairly recently discovered champagne gene is gathering momentum as understanding and breeders hands on experience is documented and distributed.

Whatever the explanation, we can be sure of in depth discussion on this forum and i for one am looking forward to any advances on this topic.

www.havenbeech-stud.co.uk
Breeding Pinto & Dilute Part Bred Arabians & Welsh Ponies

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Rozy Rider
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
4544 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  11:34:39 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Rozy Rider to your friends list Send Rozy Rider a Private Message
Me too, looking forward to any advances on this very interesting topic. Sue

Sue
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Athena
Silver Member


England
442 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  11:37:29 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
Well I agree it's fascinating - frustrating not to know more isn't it? Just tried the phone number but no reply. Will try again and see if it is possible to get a pedigree and more info - will post it if I do of course. Alexia
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Athena
Silver Member


England
442 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  12:13:46 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Athena to your friends list Send Athena a Private Message
Hi Everyone, I justspoke to Emyr Hughes of Emyr Huges Management who are financing the Palomino pure-bred Arabian project.

He tells me they are awaiting genetic tests to confirm that the horse carries what he calls the "cream gene" but I assume this is the dilute test probably - he is not himself a horseman but got involved as a businessman. Nonetheless he stressed that they have every reason to believe it is there, and have checked all the paperwork to ensure the horse is indeed pure-bred.

The breeding, of course, is local desert breeding rather than any Western bloodlines we are familiar with - this is why, until business issues are all tied up, all the reports are being deliberately vague as to which Middle Eastern country is the source and what the bloodlines are.

He has asked me to text him the AL website address, so maybe he will be able to post answers to some of our queries as and when he is able to release the information. Alexia
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razgold
Platinum Member


USA
1575 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  5:16:08 PM  Show Profile  Send razgold a Yahoo! Message Bookmark this reply Add razgold to your friends list Send razgold a Private Message
What a small world we live in. I used to live just up the road from the lady that has the palomino thoroughbred and she bought him from a ranch in the US that I have been watching on marestare.

Sue.


www.lyndalearabians.com
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Chris James
Silver Member


United Kingdom
492 Posts

Posted - 29 Jul 2008 :  7:56:06 PM  Show Profile  Send Chris James an AOL message Bookmark this reply Add Chris James to your friends list Send Chris James a Private Message
Hello Sue,

Which one -- Gold Fox? More info please as to which? & more offspring??

This is interest over here.

Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians

Edited by - Chris James on 29 Jul 2008 7:58:21 PM
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