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Grey Girl
Platinum Member


England
1554 Posts

Posted - 26 Aug 2006 :  8:56:06 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Grey Girl to your friends list Send Grey Girl a Private Message
Ah, right, thanks Mike!
There you are, see how much confusion a show would clear up!

Perhaps AL could put up a temporary 'show' board on the site, with pictures of 'typical' types? Photos would be better than nothing...

Just a thought, it's not me who would have to do the work!

Grey Girl

Said the little eohippus, "Iīm going to be a HORSE"
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templars
Platinum Member


England
1852 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2006 :  09:12:28 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add templars to your friends list Send templars a Private Message
I agree it would be good to start small but and I like the idea of maybe a lunchtime parade (but looked what happened to the suggestion for a parade this year)!

The problem with arranging a "small" show/parade is that people just won't go - look at the number of people who are not going to the Crabbet show (me included and God knows I've done enough over the years in my own little way to promote Old English/Crabbet breeding).

Maybe Alison is right - a photoboard of some description.

Re the logistics of it though: More and more people I have spoken to were staying on at Malvern on the Saturday night. Apparently the stabling is cheaper.

In terms of "straight" then those organisations that are established such as the Crabbet Organisation and the Pyramid Society would be invited to help - the Egyptian Event manages it.

In terms of paying the obviously it would need more research to find out what the costs would be and potential entrants would pay to parade (just like a show entry).

However, to be honest I don't think it will happen. There's been the usual enthusiasm and then it will just evaporate away and the whole thing will fall flat on its face.

www.eviepeel.com
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2006 :  12:52:43 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message
None of the problems are insurmountable, however the majority of the enthusiasm and interest has been (and would be on the day) from people, who when watching a normal class at a show would dearly love to know which horses are which This is information that "straight" enthusiasts of all "flavours" get from the catalogue as a result of their own knowledge and research Though the mix varies from year to year, there are always "straight" horses as well as first crosses in the classes at Malvern. All that is really required is a means of identifying them, so that those who wish to, can look out for them and know what they are watching This needs nothing more than the time and knowledge to present the information which is already in the catalogue in a somewhat different format so that the average spectator is informed as to which "straight" horses are entered in which class. Easy enough to do, but it would require a fair bit of time and effort from someone(or less time for a group) and of course the catalogue/list of entries isn't available until just before the show starts.

Mike
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Annette
Platinum Member

England
1551 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2006 :  1:30:42 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Annette to your friends list Send Annette a Private Message
I love the idea, but I dont think Malvern on the Sunday would be the right day. As Vygoda has said most people still there on the Sunday are wanting to get home, many will be at work on the Monday, so need some time to relax after the last few hectic days. So if its going to work, then I think space needs to be found for it during the 3 days of the show. Maybe the Friday evening after the show classes are finished? Most people are still there then. I'm also not sure that charging people to parade their horses is the right thing to do.
Just my opinion
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2006 :  6:10:42 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message
To return to Grey Girl's earlier point regarding egyptians, presumably you meant horses like this:-



As opposed to horses like this:-


Mike
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Chris James
Silver Member


United Kingdom
497 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2006 :  8:27:45 PM  Show Profile  Send Chris James an AOL message Bookmark this reply Add Chris James to your friends list Send Chris James a Private Message
Think you'll find that the NPS Champs follow on at Malvern from the Sunday/Monday/Tuesday after us. Their shedule is always fully booked I'm afraid.

Chris James
http://home2.btconnect.com/cjames-arabians
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jaj
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4324 Posts

Posted - 27 Aug 2006 :  8:56:31 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add jaj to your friends list Send jaj a Private Message
Who are they Mike? Is the top one Al Lahab per chance? to the uninitiated (me) can you explain why the Americans in particular like their horses so fine and 'seahorsey'?

When I am at a show or looking at photos when I can see the pedigree, I'm often very frustrated that I can't necessarily identify the Egyptian/Spanish/Polish/English/Russian element to its breeding if I'm not familiar with the horse. I often just have to guess by the sound or spelling of the name which is not a very exact science. I would love, next to the name in the catalogue, to have the percentages illustrated. A hideous amount of work obviously, but maybe if the owners were in possession of the information they could submit it beforehand? A picture board would be the next best thing with lots of examples of different 'straights' and 'crosses' for us anoraks to study!

Jen




Kuraishiya (Maleik el Kheil/Kazra el Saghira) and Sahara Bey (Kuraishiya/WSA Charismma)
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barbara.gregory
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
4531 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  11:12:31 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add barbara.gregory to your friends list Send barbara.gregory a Private Message
I agree with Mike, SE Egyptians are not always fine and "seahorsey". The original SEs were generally smaller and wirey as that was what was need for the harsh conditions in the desert. Now there are different "types" of SEs just as there are different types within the other straights. I have two full sisters (SEs) and they are chalk and cheese. One is VERY big (about 15 3") with the longer, straighter head and is a very imposing mare while the other is about 14 3" max with a really lovely dished head and big doe eyes, a real head turner, neither of them is "fine", they both look like they would make superb ridden horses.

The golden cross was originally coined for the cross of Shaker el Masri/Estopa which produced El Shaklan and then became more general to cover any Spanish Egyptian cross. I have to say it usually works very well, they do seem to compliment each other a lot of the time. My stallion took a lot from his sire (Crusader) but fortunately inherited his dam's huge black Spanish eyes.

Barbara

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Grey Girl
Platinum Member


England
1554 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  12:26:18 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Grey Girl to your friends list Send Grey Girl a Private Message
Mike: thank you, those pictures have cleared up a lot! A picture paints a thousand words...

The 'every day' arab horses that you see in Egypt are tough looking, solid, working horses: for ages I was under the impression that when people described an arabian as SE they meant that sort of horse (the sort of horse I now realise is more of an Old English) - probably more what the 'original' working arabians looked like.

Dear me, I do hope I'm not displaying a ghastly amount of ignorance here...!

Grey Girl

Said the little eohippus, "Iīm going to be a HORSE"
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2028 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  1:49:01 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GHALEEM to your friends list Send GHALEEM a Private Message
Grey Girl, I know what you mean. But i think the ones you saw were perhaps the working horses which were'nt such good quality? I went to a small stud right by the Pyramids and saw some very 'seahorsey' examples.
Michelle
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  2:07:03 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message
The two photo's are of Al Lahab (grey) and Ibn Galal (dark chestnut)

Though it may appear that I am living on a differant planet to everyone else, there isn't really a great deal of differance between Egyptian horses and the traditional English ones. This is in effect what attracted me to the Egyptians in the first place

This is a photo of the Courthouse stallion Spearmint alongside Ibn Galal


And here are Oran and Shaker El Masri


Not a million miles apart!

Mike
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GHALEEM
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
2028 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  2:15:38 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add GHALEEM to your friends list Send GHALEEM a Private Message
Grey Girl,
Here are some examples of the horses i saw in Egypt. Sorry not great photos, are the first two the type of horse you saw?




Edited by - GHALEEM on 28 Aug 2006 2:33:41 PM
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katefox1812
Platinum Member

United Kingdom
1612 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  5:19:31 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add katefox1812 to your friends list Send katefox1812 a Private Message
I do love the way Mike always has the perfect picture (or 6) to illustrate any point!

Although I have to say that isn't the most flattering photo of Spearmint - he looks much prettier in real life. Jane, do you have any pics of him? Or perhaps Mike you have some more? I love this horse, and really hope that lots more people will use him before it's too late and these lovely Courthouse lines are lost! Sorry, a bit off topic (unless we include 'straight Courthouse' in the parade/photo-show idea)?!

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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  9:45:20 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message
Spearmint at Ascot in '85


Going back a more than a few years, one of these two was BNCh at Ascot the other Champion at Ardingley



Mike
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Treasure
Silver Member

England
442 Posts

Posted - 28 Aug 2006 :  10:20:34 PM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Treasure to your friends list Send Treasure a Private Message
I agree about the precious Courthouse lines. They seemed very much a distinct type, although some didn't have great movement and some tended towards the 'ponyish' - Spearmint definitely doesn't fall into either category (!)and others like him are/were really beautiful. They seem out of fashion these days which is sad but I'm proud to say that my mare Khazana carries some of the best Courthouse lines through her dam, Raqisa.

St Simon, Blenheim, Benjamin .... and of course Judith's late Santanna, and they'nicked' well with some of the Polish (Argos certainly).

Carolyn

Johaara Arabians
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Natalie M
Bronze Member

England
67 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  12:19:14 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Natalie M to your friends list Send Natalie M a Private Message
For SHEENA.
Windella Silver Sensation - her strain is Hamdanieh Simrieh (Selma 1894)
Her tail female goes back beyond Silver Fire (1926) to> Somra > Siwa > Sobha >and finally to Selma.
Sobha was bred by Mahmud Bey who had purchased her dam, Selma, when Abbas Pasha's horses were sold. She was bought by Wilfrid and Lady Anne Blunt in 1891, imported to England in that year and then sold to Russia in 1899.



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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  08:11:41 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message
Marilyn Sweet took some photos of Spearmint last week at the grand old age of 24 - I look forward to getting them very much and will then post one or two.

And quite unbelievably, Spearmint had 5 mares to him this year including 2 of mine, all tested in foal . Four of them are Crabbet/GSB's and the fifth is a Russian/GSB (he is crossing very well indeed with Russians or half Russians).

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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  09:01:06 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message
Ok, now we are with that, what about us who are not living in UK? I look foreward to that the breeders will start to make some frozen semen for us who want it, I have asked so many times, but with no results, how come that you didnīt want to make this service?

My future in horsebreeding lay in ruin at the moment as I am not a rich lady who can afford to send my mares to UK , have them stabled, pay the fee and return them back.

I also would have liked that the SCID status has become more open, so I had known what I was dealing with, but it seems to me that people donīt care very much about this side of the breeding.

Gunni.
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Vygoda
Platinum Member

United Arab Emirates
1627 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  09:52:11 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Vygoda to your friends list Send Vygoda a Private Message
Hi gunni,

I am so sorry to hear about your filly - I can imagine you are very despondent indeed as all your plans are temporarily in ruins. I am very sad for you.

It costs about Ģ1,500 to collect and freeze semen (if the stallion freezes that is) just for the UK market, and more costs to go to Europe, and then there are the storage costs too. Therefore, unless you have a large market for the semen, the costs are unrealistic.

Lat week, I had a small group of breeders to look at my horses and over lunch, we discussed SCID and its ramifications - a most interesting day all in all. The consensus of opinion was that it was not a problem as long as one knew what the result could be, and the chances of having a foal with SCID that had to be put down. We all felt that SCID testing must be done but the onus is actually on the mare owner or the purchaser to check this out before either sending a mare to the stallion or buying a mare or a stallion.

Too, over this summer and because of your situation, I have had several conversations with mare owners who are friends who are planning or have sent mares to SCID positive stallions. It seems that, though the theory and percentages are relatively simple to work out, there is a total lack of understanding about SCID until one is directly involved and even then, I was amazed at how little they knew about the risks involved .

Trying to find a good 100% Crabbet stallion is like finding gold dust and that's before knowing if they are SCID clear!!

Apologies if this post is of no help, just my thoughts really.
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  09:56:29 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message
Hi Gunni,

One reason for this, is perhaps that AI has only recently begun to become widely available in the UK, and whilst there are now lots of vets who can do the insemination of mares there are still only a few places that offer stallion collection services. Also given how difficult it is for stallion owners to attract even fairly local mares, most owners assume that there would be no interest at all from further afield

I can sympathise with your plight, this horse is the one that I would choose if I could pick any stallion in the world, but being available by live cover only and standing in Germany makes it a pipe dream rather than a practical proposition and he's the same age as Spearmint.


Mike
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Mike
Platinum Member

Eire
1872 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  10:06:55 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add Mike to your friends list Send Mike a Private Message
For a bit of fun, would anyone like to have a guess as to which group of bloodlines this horse falls into, or even have a stab at guessing the identity/breeding?



Mike
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  10:24:11 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message
When I started to look after my horses,you know how long it is since, I was not known of the SCID , I read about it later and was thinking I better have my horses done, and as you know four out of five was carriers.

The breeders didnīt know because nobody seems to know about the risk.

So now my situation is, that I can go on as nothing was done and hope for the best, then let the foal test right after birth so I know the status. This thing is very hard to do, because who are breeding horses just to put them to sleep?

On the other hand, many animals, sweet too, are breed for slaughtering, what is the difference?.

I have thinking this over and over again, if I do it this way, ( have not forget the offer from Templar)I can test the foals at birth and select them.I know I sound harch and I donīt think I can do it, but it is a way to preserve the lines.

And here again is it a question about preserving or promotion? In my case it was preserving, it was never my plan to make great money of my horses, as I have seen what money can make to a breed,with people close their mouth and eyes in fear of loosing money.

I understand very well that not eveybody can freeze semen just to do it, there have to be some interest, but i also know of others who badly want to have some out of SCID clear Crabbets, but it is as a slap in a pillow.

It makes it all so difficult, and please forgive me if I sound sauer and bitter it is not the meaning, the only thing I want is that people admit there is a problem, and act with that in their minds.

Gunni.
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  10:31:19 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message

I give it try at Mikeīs grey horse, with a risk to fail badly.

Looking at her hindquarters, to me she looks very well like an english or polish breed.

Gunni.
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gu-ku-vi
Gold Member

Denmark
744 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  10:40:56 AM  Show Profile Bookmark this reply Add gu-ku-vi to your friends list Send gu-ku-vi a Private Message

Denmark is that country in the whole world who has most horse per, citicen(spelling)

Very, very few of our stallion cover natural, and almost every vet can insiminate, so we are so familiar with it , therefore may be my understanding is so little.

Private stables has there own freezer where the semen are collected, wich means that I for a relative little money can have semen stored.

Think some day it will so also in UK, have you ever talk with breeders of other breeds about it, as this I speak of in Denmark are the danish varmblood breeders but that dosnīt mean that arabians can not be done there to.
Gunni.
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Honeyb060674
Platinum Member


United Kingdom
4301 Posts

Posted - 29 Aug 2006 :  10:53:46 AM  Show Profile  Send Honeyb060674 an AOL message Bookmark this reply Add Honeyb060674 to your friends list Send Honeyb060674 a Private Message
I'd say Polish too...just by comparison rather than being knowledgable!


Claire & Sunny x
http://sunnyandclaire.blogspot.com/
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