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T O P I C R E V I E W
T42
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 3:22:10 PM Why do Arabs flag their tails. Is there an evolutionary advantage? Always wondered!
14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First)
Pasch
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 11:20:51 AM I agree that when doing vertebrae counts one should only consider purebred arabs and pure coldblooded horses,and not mixes,which is quite difficult now as arab blood is in most other breeds today. The mare I ride now has 25% arab blood in her,and she has high tail carriage,a short back and the typical turning around of the head(wonder where that comes from).I know another mare with clearly a large amount of arab blood that shows the same signs,and one more with mostly arab blood but longer back and low tail carriage.All other breeds I can think of may have a low or high tail set but only flag their tails when very excited,arabs do always when moving,the faster the higher. Helen brilliant picture!
lisa rachel
Posted - 20 Nov 2011 : 10:56:47 AM Keren, thanks, I know what you mean about remembering sources!!! nightmare ... you have DEFINITELY read it somewhere but where?? like me you probably have a ridiculous number of Arab books However for me it would have to be a statistically significant number of horses of both PURE (at least as is generally accepted as Asil) Arabs and pure 'cold blood' breeds with absolutely no Arab blood, otherwise I don't see grounds for doubting that in general Arabs have fewer vertebrae than other breeds, a single horse's count is of no significance for the reasons that I stated above. Kes I am sure that I have read that Skowronek DID have the classic Arab count, like Keren it will take me a while to source the ref... I am pretty sure that it is in (surprise, surprise!) Lady W's 'The Authentic Arabian Horse), but unfortunately it is in a later edition than my own copy, it was one belonging to a friend in Jordan, my own copy is an earlier edition, before the whole Skowronek debate took off , thus before Lady W felt the need to defend him. In my view there is of course non pure blood in Polish horses (including Skowronek) but far less than those who would condemn them as partbreds would suggest; the Poles had been importing Arabs for centuries before the stud books a were established (and many of these were lost in war and revolution in any case)so I would think that many of the 'suspect' mares were not Asil but would have been of VERY high % Arab blood and not the local carthorses that is sometimes implied. There has been some interesting Polish research showing mtDNA of certain of the foundation mares to be the same as that of certainly Asil mares, proving the purity of the tail female line at least). All this will of course have a potential bearing on vertebrae counts of all horses with Polish, Spanish, Crabbet(due to Skowronek), Russian and er, French (!) bloodlines. PS Helen.... brilliant photo
Helen Newton
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 10:31:57 PM
Spot the Arab......Rooster keeping himself cool.....
Kes
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 7:32:35 PM I think I am right in saying Skowronek had the 'ordinary' horse amount, not the 'Arab' amount. It was found out because his skeleton is on (was?) show.
MinHe
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 7:28:14 PM Lisa Rachel, the first reference I can think of is in Gladys Brown Edwards' 'War Horse to Show Horse', but there is a more recent study which I cannot for the life of me remember where I read it (please bear with me, I have been researching Arabs since my teens and I don't honestly remember a lot of my sources these days - curse of advancing age ). A friend with vet training also confirmed she was taught these figures as 'absolutes', but given that at least one Arab (Naziri I think) is known to have had one MORE vertebrae than the norm for 'ordinary' horses, then the idea of these figures being set in stone must be regarded with caution, at the very least.
Keren
lisa rachel
Posted - 19 Nov 2011 : 6:55:56 PM Keren, could you please reference that research? it would be interesting. I was taught the conventional numbers for Arabs and non Arabs at vet school, though obviously most riding breeds have significant Arab blood so 'Arab' counts would be expected in this case from time to time, it also has to be said that many Arab lines are not 100% pure so there may be discrepancies for that reason? The evidence would have to be based on counts in Asil Arabs vs a pure 'cold blood' breed, even then there are always anomalies, I've seen enough animals born with the 'wrong' number of legs, never mind vertebrae! At the moment,I still think that it is more than a 'myth', though certainly not an absolute? I think that your comments on a high tail carriage as a means of thermoregulation, at least 'lifted' to some degree which is how most Arabs carry their tails all the time even when completely calm, make a lot of sense, though I think that full on high 'flagging' is more triggered by happy excitement ( and sadly as we all know by stress and by fear....) and would be likely to have an expressive role rather than purely a means of heat loss? Worth noting, back to my original point about Arab blood in other breeds that plenty of horses of many breeds flag their tails when excited/scared. While I'm rambling, the thread on head profile was interesting though I was too busy to comment. The poor poor filly that Linda posted was just tragic, I agree with Linda, I don't think any sane person could find anything approaching that beautiful. I do, of course, love a good Arab head, deep jowl, lovely eye,refined muzzle just the unmistakable stamp of class, with or without a dish . An extreme dish seems certain to be a respiratory handicap, and certainly there are Bedouin breeders of Asil Arabs who declare that they have never sought nor admired a dished head, Lady Blunt also commented that a straight profile was NOT a fault providing that the head was of quality.
MinHe
Posted - 18 Nov 2011 : 5:03:13 PM Unfortunately, it is just a myth that Arabs have fewer vertebrae - research has shown that the number of equine vertebrae vary across ALL breeds (and horses of no breed at all!) - some individuals have fewer than the so-called 'normal', other individuals (including Arabs!) have more!
Keren
arretonarabians
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 9:49:23 PM Pasch I wouldn't think that would be the case re balance as you would see it in dogs as well if that was the case? Maybe? I dunno
Kes
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 6:28:34 PM I have read (somewhere?) about the heat loss mechanics also so makes sense when you consider origins. But.....they also do it when excited, alarmed, showing off etc. Kes will even flip his tail from side to side when just standing (not in the irritable sense). Although as nasty mummy washed his tail yesterday in the middle on November I can vouch for the 'clamping' down of the tail when cold
pinkvboots
Posted - 17 Nov 2011 : 12:11:59 PM Very good question T42, I don't have any idea though as to why they do but I agree it looks very nice, and they do tend to do it when they are alarmed or excited so maybe it is a warning although the heat theory also sounds plausible.
Pasch
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 8:38:19 PM I thought it was due to arabs having less back and tail bones(vertebrae)than other horses,so raising the tail should have something to do with balance when moving at faster gaits?Berber horses have a low set of tail but come from same environment
Pashon2001
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 6:45:14 PM That would be true of all breeds from hot countries though wouldnt it??? I think some traits are just there lol
MinHe
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 5:43:48 PM There is a major evolutionary advantage - it exposes the thinly-haired area around the anus/genitals allowing for heat loss, very important when you live in a desert environment. Conversely, horses/ponies which originate from cold environments keep their tails clamped close to the hindquarters to *prevent* heat loss.
The reason the tail is held further away from the body when the horse is excited is to compensate for the extra heat generated by rapid movement. Flipping the tail over also exposes the underside of the dock and so increases the surface area that heat can be lost from.
All in all, a very practical piece of evolution, as well as attractive!
Keren
Pashon2001
Posted - 16 Nov 2011 : 3:59:48 PM Maybe the same way deer do?? To warn others that something dangerous, exciting or whatever is happening??
